Monday, January 5. 2009KDE Trolls, eat this (image copyright by Wade Olson) Anyone else noticed the extreme amount of hate & trolling against KDE lately, and especially against KDE 4? I have a special message for you trolls: You're fucking idiots. For your consideration: 1) they ignore you 2) they laugh at you 3) they fight you 4) YOU WIN. (we're at stage 3 now) Trackbacks
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Talking about trolls, have you ever considered they might (sometimes) be right? In other words, i think is not bad but for me (personally) it's not ready yet (i say for me, i'm not a troll
 ) what i do really like about it is the "modular" build of the most necessary stuff i need (akregator) where in KDE 4 i don't need to install whole KDEPIM to have just that:)In other words as soon as KDE 4 will have my most beloved KDE 3 apps (k3b, kaffeine,amarok) completely ported (without loss of functionality, i don't mind adding something) i'm sold. For now i skip this one and wait
@mark - Wow, I sense a lot of frustration in that post. We've all been dealing with that lately. But hey, nice image.
@BBR: Well, I won't speak for Mark but the frustration doesn't come from being "right" or "wrong." It comes from people with negative or hostile attitudes that may not be informed or current. It comes from people that would rather complain than file a bug report. It comes from people that purposefully act as if their opinion on software functions and features are "Best practices." It comes from people that have no interest in helping KDE, even though we can use help from some many different skill sets. The KDE community always welcomes constructive feedback and insight. KDE 4, as expected, is maturing and advancing very quickly. Complaining about what may have been missing in KDE 4.0.0 or early Amarok betas are sometimes out of ignorance, but sometimes just malicious. Keep up the great work Amarokers!
They come here to troll, because the GNOME developers aren't receptive to any form of criticism, constructive or not. So they take their frustrations out on KDE, because they try to give their applications features.
"You don't need that feature, or my way of doing it is better." - Famous GNOME developer.
And whenever we tell them their feature idea is stupid, they have the "don't be like gnome" trump card. I suppose they don't have this advantage when trolling Gnome.
However I know the trolling that Mark was responding to, and it was the dependency-whiner. I don't know if that even counts as criticism.
I think you are completely right. Over 90% are pure trolls, who never used kde at all.
@Bender... : In case you don't know: You can use this kde 3 apps just fine in KDE4. p.s. KDE 4.2 beta 2 really rocks - best DE ever.
That sentence in italic is rather ... direct ... and trollbait.
Are you trying to lure all trolls here to have Amarok at them? Sounds like a plan. 
An I thought things were cooling down and with 4.2 we would get back to normality. Good to know that someone always keep the flame wars going on. And what a nice inner logic in this blog entry: A heart with the "be free" slogan and below some "I HATE YOU, YOU FUCKING IDIOTS".
Well done! 
So I'm a fucking idiot because 4.0 sucked BIG TIME and 4.1 is poor?
Just because 4.2 is much better does not mean you guys were right since the start, 4.0 was a enormous error, no matter what you say now. SImply pathetic post, sorry but this will not help bring developers and users to the same pace again
I beg to differ. Without 4.0 KDE wouldn't be at the state it is now.
I simply don't care much about the KDE 4.X trolling unless it's fumed by "well renown Linuxwriters" such as Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols aka "Sloppy Steve"who made him self a true fool with a coupple of articles. One was a call for a fork.
Performing a point by point screening of his rants convinced me that he first of all was commenting on a old version but presenting it as a review of the latest. Secondly it proved that he failed to understand the concept and was incredibly sloppy when he tested the DE. I don't mind serious chrisism - that would only improve KDE 4.X and as such a valuable contribution to the DE - but the idea of bashing merely due to different preferences is simply ignorant, rude and narsistic. On the positive side - directing extreme rage towards KDE 4.X probably prevents such rage from being released domesticly.
You forgot step 3.5: You die.
And to be honest, I can think of many counter examples where step 4 is actually "you lose"
I have to disagree: we are at step 4 now. this post obviously comes much too late
Just this:
Many of the "the old times were so much better" criticisms come from purely ignorant people and I can see that it is frustrating for the KDE devs (and mostly plain unfair not honoring the great work they put into KDE). On the other hand, many comments I read from KDE devs (including from some Amarok devs lately) are as ignorant as the criticism they face. Instead on doing just the same, i.e., bitching on people, you devs should focus on (a) making KDE4 and Amarok2 a full product especially adding the features people miss the most, and (b) convince people that the new version is actually cool instead of yelling at everyone. And this includes your recent comments, Mark. Do you have so little self-esteem that you need to insult people? That's not a bit better than most of the plain stupid comments people post to forums etc.
If you hadn't noticed, the devs (including Mark) are focusing on improving Amarok/KDE4, especially adding features that some people were missing.
The problem with a lot of the criticism/trolling (and i'm not referring to you here) is that it is obviously not helping anything, it is just small-minded people venting their petty frustrations without any real knowledge of what is going on in the development process. And if you point that out to them they just get nastier instead of reading the relevant blogs/mailing lists or even checking out what's going on in trunk.
Anyone who thinks "old times were better" never used KDE 1.x
Bob, I consider KDE4.2 a major success and much better than KDE3, especially now that Aaron fixed a very annoying plasma memory leak. I honestly have no idea what makes people so attached on KDE3, many KDE3 bugs are fixed in KDE4 and the remaining KDE4 bugs aren't that important.
Mark, thanks for amarok 2, it's a worthy replacement of 1.4. I think that the trolls' purpose is to make KDE developers lose their temper, don't give in so easily.
I am using KDE 4.2 and is definitely less stable than 3. Plasma still crashes on me a few times a week. But this still doesnt stop me from using it, cause its really good.
Plasma crashes are mostly caused by incompatible plasmoids, I haven't had any plasma crash in 4.2 so far.
Can we not have plasmoid's run in a sandbox environment so as rogue plasmoids can't crash whole plasma?
Just to noit pose as a absolute troll:
- I use KDE 4.2 nightly on my desktop, it rocks, but still have a lot of problems. I do not like Plasma, actually I believe the desktop (panel, wallpapers and such) are each day loosing importance to the actual thing we users want: apps. That said, KDE4 comes with a collection of top-class apps like krdc and dolphin. - 4.2 is way too fat to run decently on my asus eeePC 701, and I think KDE3 fits better on low resolution screen devices, also have much better key shortcuts (win+f open firefox) than 4.2. So there is now way I'm changing my netbook DE so early, BUT, this is not a problem, I like KDE 3.X and do not need to upgrade. So, I'm happy with both 4.2 and 3.5.X
[off]
This doesn't relate to KDE because amarok is not officially part of KDE. But some people mentioned it. Well amarok's 2.0, is anything but release quality IMHO. See: "Album covers are still getting mixed up." and "Amarok wouldn’t play files which filenames contain diacritics." http://polishlinux.org/kde/kde-42-beta/ I don't wan't to even mention the database issue because it's a real flammer. [/off] KDE 4 has evolved tremendously, I know, I compiled the SVN every day. But it's still not ready for some people like me, hopefully it will in 4.2 or maybe 4.3. There are still strange issues like you can't place plasmoids where you want to on the panel, you can't colorize panels and so on. Well maybe issues for me but not strange for someone else. The criticism comes from people trying to find the KDE 3 in KDE 4. People waste hours and find out that they simply can't do the same things in KDE 4, that they used to do in KDE 3, and that's when they say "KDE 4 sux!", which in turn upsets the developer who has been working hours to make KDE 4. It's a cruel world we live in...
Absolutely correct. If we had everything KDE 3 had there wouldn't be much freedom to change things for the better.
"You're fucking idiots."
3) they fight you Yes, you are at stage 3 right now. But you are not on the good side. Right now you are the evil one
Or of course, we could be at stage 2 with the trolls themselves, where they could be the winning ones
 Always the pessimist.
By the way what's the a difference between a "troll" and a developer who calls people "fucking idiots"? I don't think any of them are really on "the good side".
Is this a trend here at the amarok blog to call people idiots? It's kinda like "if you don't agree you are idiots". This is not the first post of this nature. Ain't posting posts like these are "illegal" on planet KDE? Ther is always an "X suxx because Y" but some people neglect the "because" clause and call the author a troll.
For a collective group of people that resorted to calling Aaron Hitler, you trolls have real thin skins when someone dishes a bit of insult your way.
If you play the game, play by the rules, 1st of all RDFM:
"Do not inflame KDE covers a wide variety of people and cultures. Profanities, prejudice, lewd comments and content likely to offend are to be avoided. Do not make personal attacks or attacks against other projects on your blog." You are really short sighted if you take all people who ever said something negative about KDE and/or amarok(or didn't agree with one of it's devs), and put them into one group. How childish....writing flaming posts ain't gonna help nobody, writing code and/or addressing issues can. If someone says something bad about your project, don't write a post, write code instead and prove the man wrong. If you can't write code, than just ignore it or admit it that you can't do it, and he/she should probably use another application instead of your's, and let it go. But you can go on with your Holy War, and "win", whatever.
> Do not make personal attacks or attacks against other projects on your blog
Trolls are neither human nor a project. > if you take all people Nobody did so. > your Holy War Doesn't look holy or like a war for me.
Your comment is a typical trolling comment, you understand nothing and still you reply blindly.
It is unfortunate that you have to use such strong expletives and quote Gandhiji the very next line.
Most of the complaints about plasma (and other KDE 4 stuff) have a point. That doesn't take away anything about the amount of work you guys have done. This is just software developed in free time and some of you even say its developed for your own needs and its just happens to be in KDE4. Some will like it, some won't. Some will be vocal, some won't. Be open to bugs and criticisms as you are open to praises, fame and glory. I also see that the criticisms need to have a gentler tone and there is a general lack of sympathy for devs working hard in free time in them. But to quote gandhiji again "Be the change you wish to see in the world". Respond to all the trolls, criticisms well and you will see them being more understanding.
I'm not complaining, i can honestly say i really tried KDE 4 despite some drawbacks and i'm aware i can run KDE 3 apps with KDE 4 but my point is that i DON'T want to run KDE 3 apps if i choose KDE 4 (i understand it's hard to manage everything because every app get's ported at it's own pace) and i really respect all the developers work.
The thing with Gnome is one, they evolves, KDE 4 makes a revolution:) But hey i'm just an end user. Amarok was the main reason i tried KDE 4 and if it had iPOD support or any music players support then it would be great but i think we'll see KDE 4 stable as KDE 3.5 in 4.4 or maybe 4.5 version. I definitely give 4.2 a try (i already did) but i experiment a lot so every week there is something else:) Make love not war!!!
I've always attached my name to everything I've said WRT to KDE. Ignoring the pathological trolls-- There is a nub of truth in some of the criticism around KDE. I've publicly said that KDE 3 to 4 would be far more like KDE 1 to 2 (rough) than KDE 2 to 3 (smooth).
Myself, porting status issues don't grate on me too much because I've been here before. The disturbing silence around K3B doesn't really bug me, and it seems like most of the other big apps are there or just about there. If they don't make it 'there' they'll be superseded... That's the way it's always been. The same goes for the state of 4.0.0--- I've been there before as well. Dito for the 'big changes' at the core of the desktop. But there is a bit of a stink at the heart of the dev-o-sphere. It goes something like this: Developers, "I / we have a vision"-- Developers build shiny jargon around vision-- Users lag in understanding jargon-- Changes come-- Users disagree some don't understand-- (At this point you write off the folks that can't bother to learn--) Some users still disagree-- Told they don't understand-- Users say, "We understand now, but we disagree".-- Users told they don't understand AND AREN'T experts. Users / peasants (that's often what were treated like) get somewhat disenchanted. This isn't so bad if the thing in question is something fairly peripheral like kSnapshot, but if the thing in question is the core of the desktop or a high profile app things get volatile quickly. At this point: a) The users that can't bother to learn 'go bad' or 'go silent'. (Not the worst loss.) b) The users that don't agree 'go bad' or 'go silent'. c) You get vocal developers who tell us we're too stupid and not experts causing users with marginal issues to 'go bad' or 'go silent'. d) Worst yet you have some (one in particular) high profile and high volume developers that are prone to doing the above and threatening to take their ball and go home. All of this is manna for the hardcore trolls and it lets them tap into the pool of good users who've gone bad, and causes the occasional user who's gone silent to lash out. Given the orders of magnitude more users than develops that gets loud quickly. With KDE 4 you were going to be throwing some users under the bus. That was known before you started (or should have been). To a certain extent the developers have made their own bed with respect to how things are now. At this point I use KDE, and use it relatively happily (my few issues aside) but I've given up on any 'honest advocacy' on-line and to my peers, and ignore anything written by several of your developers completely just to save me from the gut "uggh" reaction that is admittedly irrational. Frankly, your post hasn't helped.
I personally agree with you, I have got my own beef with a few things that ended up being broken between 3.5 and 4.1, but may I ask that swearing (I'm a pirate myself at times, my own private time though) be kept of this very public area, it damages the very things that you are trying to promote. At best it discredits the individual only, I for one sincerely hope that is the case.
Yes, trolling is bad. But perhaps trolling against users is bad too (?). Anyway, I want to thank KDE and Amarok developers for working hard and creating this new-generation desktop and its applications.
I have not tried KDE4 nor Amarok2 myself. I use Debian and it will take quite long time before Debian stable release will include these. About two years I guess.
I prepared myself for the start of something amazing
http://dot.kde.org/1200050369/ and i didn't get it. It's been pure hype ever since. The KDE team has been baiting ordinary users ever since by overselling their unstable unfinished project. Now users are blamed for "misunderstanding" 4.0. How can we believe anything we are told? still crashes each session I have with it.
it's kinda ironic that this whole post is acctual also a troll-post, just for KDE, not against it...
Wow, I like KDE but this is stupid. It makes it look like the trolls are indeed winning. If you can't ignore them, at least don't post such an insulting thing.
The problem is, most of the people I've talked to who hate KDE 4 (including myself (Yes, I talk to myself =P ) ) were at the final stage.
And to be honest, I am on the verge of just laughing at how poor KDE 4 is compared to 3.5, which would take me down to 2). How long before I start hating you, like so many other things, for what you could've been and threw away? You're going backwards.
Disclaimer: I'm not angry at KDE or anything. Aside of Amarok, KDE is just not my thing, and that's that. I suppose it's a decent competitor. (The only thing I usually criticise KDE for is the emphasis on new cool features rather than usability and stability, but that's pretty minor. After all, it'll all get fixed in the future and all that =)
But here in the GNOMEland, we have had several pretty Helpful Quotes for several occasions. One in particular: "You can now flame me, I am full of love, and will ignore any insults, because that is how good my Gnus filter is." - Miguel de Icaza, 16th June 2001
Right. Thanks for your excellent *work*!
I was first a bit sceptic too, but now that I'm using Amarok 2.0 since its release, I can confirm it's really good and after some time will be the best player again Most software would probably have a beta label for this stage but KDE historically uses x.0 even for alphas, so we should just wait a bit until it's feature complete and bug free. What's most important is that KDE4 and Amarok2 are steps in correct direction. Thanks for that!
i think flaming any one gnome kde is dumb. both teams work hard..
i use gnome and kde 3 and kde 4 and love em all. i think if kde team and gnome team, teamed up we would have a very good thing going on. i can only imagen.
The problem with kde4 is not that it was released in a pre-alpha-quality state, nor that 4.1 was apha-quality. The problem is not that it is very different from what we liked about kde3. The problem is that almost all distros are forcing it into users, and many of them leave us with no other choice than to use a mostly useless desktop (of course, I mean gnome), or to use a KDE desktop that is not quite ready to be used as a stable system.
If kde4 were still an option, instead of the only option, and people were still able to choose kde3 if they so desire, kde4 wouldn't be so loathed by almost every single person that has tried it. Fedora doesn't even let you install Amarok 1.4 anymore, you're stuck with 2.0 which is as incomplete as kde-4.0 was, until you search the forums for a way to get 1.4 back. KDE4 was the reason why I ditched Kubuntu. The choice was taken away from users to install KDE3, just as if suddenly Gnome or xfce4 weren't installable anymore. That's why people are angry.
well, there is a large number of distros around, some are surely offering kde3 -Debian comes to mind ot Gentoo where kde3 is marked stable and kde 4 is testing.
I went crazy and am on beta2 now. To all kde developers -- kudos! The wait was definately worth it! KDE4.2 will rock. From what I've seen, even Microsoft uses it for inspirations
I was very frustrated by KDE 4.1. Nothing worked properly. BUT KDE 4.2 is amazing!!! It might have been a mistake to rush out KDE 4, but once users get to see the true power and elegance of KDE 4 in the guise of KDE 4.2, they will eat their words at writing off KDE4. I have to extend my gratitude to all the KDE 4 devs for their amazing effort. Cant wait to see Amarok 2. But I will wait for the .deb
Stop stealing Ghandi's quote, I had to hear enough of that "first they ignore you then you win" nonsense when I worked at redhat.
The reason people put up with kde's shitty stability issues and bad applications is that konqueror, the desktop, and the kicker really offered a good power user experience. It felt like windows but with more power user features that came from awesome konsole integration in various tools, kioslaves, several UI experiences for things like previews, and of course tons of configuration options for every conceivable thing. Now it has the same crappy reliability issues (which sucks because I feel like kde 3.5 is the most stable it has ever been) because it's another worthless open source application platform, but it has NONE of the power user experience. This all may change, and I hope it does, because the one positive thing I can say about kde4 is that it is more portable, more thought out, and a better framework in general.
Geez. People chill out.
We all know KDE4 desktop is a work in progress. It's common knowledge that if you want stability you stay away from initial releases. 4.2 is looking really cool to me, I hope it stabilizes for the release. So many of the apps are looking great. I believe Amarok was a little over-sold, but I'm sure it will be sweet soon.
I was just telling my friend: looks like Microsoft copied all the best kde features in the Win7 7000 build, and since kde4 is such a joke there's no reason to go back to linux purely for application or UI reasons. Just run your favorite kde apps on windows now that it's portable, and forget this opensource religious nonsense.
"and forget this opensource religious nonsense"
to your short sight it may be nonsense, but some people prefer the KDE(KDE 3 in my case) Desktop, just because it's simply better, than the windows desktop and not (just) for linux. If you think opensource is nonsense than why do you use(or recommend using) KDE apps in the first place? seems thay you even contradict yourself, or you simple don't know what is KDE and what open source means. "I was just telling my friend: looks like Microsoft copied all the best kde features in the Win7 7000 build" And you praise MS for that? You really don't understand the impact of MS being a very good copy machine and always backward compatible. Those two things add up, and are currently (Windows Vista) equal to 16GB of disk space... Next time read a little more documentation before you say such rubbish, because trash like this attract other short sighted people like you...
1) You have no idea who you're talking to.
2) I just felt like trolling this stupid thread. This is supposed to be a developer blog, and there's a post about "screw you people that say anything negative about kde4" posting. I NEVER see some bs like that on Miguel De La Caza's blog, or on a MS developer blog, or on a news feed on kde.org. If you come out saying that kind of crap, do expect people to fill your post with comments like that. Also, the reason I don't give a crap about open source is because it doesn't necessarily yield good software but people act like it does. I use KDE on one machine and Windows on another, but I have idealistic kde-loving open source zealot friends that only seem to use OS X these days (which definitely is not open source).
"1) You have no idea who you're talking to."
And you have no idea what you talking about most of the time, so we are even. "This is supposed to be a developer blog, and there's a post about "screw you people that say anything negative about kde4" posting. I NEVER see some bs like that on Miguel De La Caza's blog, or on a MS developer blog, or on a news feed on kde.org. If you come out saying that kind of crap, do expect people to fill your post with comments like that." I already told this myself. I don't know, maybe the amarok folks received a lot of negative feedback recently, and it was too much for them, or simply amarok devs can't take negative criticism. But there is no need to blame the whole KDE project just because of the amarok project. "Also, the reason I don't give a crap about open source is because it doesn't necessarily yield good software but people act like it does." True. The problem is that it seems that there is no rule in this, blog, and what comes here, gets submitted to planet kde, and it seems that everyone is just watching this. There should be a guideline that every developer should obey. But you are not even allowed to quote and amarok dev, because if you do you become a troll, and they will write an article about how much you suck and how good they are and moderate your comments. So there is no point to argue with them, let them write flamming posts, maybe it will make them happy, and when they are happy, than maybe they write code instead of blog posts, and if they write code, maybe they write something good, and not get negative feedback, which will stop them from writing idiotic posts like this in the first place.
Dear Mark,
You win. I'm switching to songbird. Sincerely, Former Amarok User
Dear Mark,
You win. I'm switching to Banshee. Sincerely, Former Amarok User
One of the good things about the KDE 4 experience is that it's made me focus of what I really want from a desktop, which is speed and stability.
That's why I switched to JWM.
So, let them flame...
I do not really understand why expecially linux users install a totally new window manager/ desktop environment which officially still is in alpha or beta state and afterwards claim that it lack's stability or functionality. It was said right from the beginning of the development of kde4 that 4.0 was chosen only to show up the big difference in technology compared to kde3 and to give developers a state, from which up it would make sense to develop/port applications for the new system. It was always said, that 4.2 will be the first state that might be considered as stable. So: We haven't reached the stable state right now! So: There's no reason to moan or flame that it's unstable or missing features, it was meant to be this way! Would you buy and drive a car which is still in development state if you're not a developer yourself? - No! So: It's their own fault to work with software which is officially in alpha/beta stage because they didn't inform themselves before buying and driving the new car. Same thing with amarok: Why don't they stick with the version they love? - I simply don't understand that. Or at least wait until the loved features come back? - Mark promised lot's of features are coming back and post nice details about the plans in the amarok-forum. Who forces all those people to use software they don't like even if they had the software of their life? Strange, strange....
"Same thing with amarok: Why don't they stick with the version they love? - I simply don't understand that. Or at least wait until the loved features come back? - Mark promised lot's of features are coming back and post nice details about the plans in the amarok-forum.
" Who wants to mix kde3 apps with kde4? Who does not want to use phonon? amarok 2.0 abuses version numbering, it's not a platform so it's not for developers, don't know then why did they rush it.... amarok 2.0 is at best alpha quality.
What's the problem with mixing kde3 and kde4? - I, for example, have kde4 installed as my main Desktop environment and also kdelibs-3.5.9 for kaffeine and kdevelop.
What could be a reason not to want that? Everything works perfectly! As I already mentioned, the full major version-number, used for kde4 and also some apps, written expecially for kde4, has it's sense, althought it maybe was a mistake because it leads to many missunderstandings. But how I already wrote, if you simply read the websites of kde4 or it's applications, all of them explicitly say it's not stable jet and not intended for everyday use! But anyway... ...if I wouldn't like the new amarok at the moment, it would be just deinstall and reinstall amarok for kde3. If it needs kdemultimedia (I don't know) that would be installed also. OK, using phonon is sexy to use these days, but expecially for developers. amarok for kde3 doesn't need it, so it will work anyway (./configure --without-arts). Why would you insist to use phonon for amarok? There's no real advantage for the user right now. But allright, I'm using gentoo and don't know if that's more difficult to do with other distributions. But I'm sure it's also possible.
KDE4 is crap, absolute crap, nothing more, it sucks like a Hoover on steroids, Amarok2 is anything but comparable to it's predecessor, Amarok2 is a steaming pile of shit!!
^^ lol, this is what I've been saying all along, LMAO.
And, as they say, KDE4 is the best thing that has ever happened to Gnome, lol I'm a Gnome lover, but I just can't take to KDE4, no, sorry, I use some KDE apps, but I loathe KDE4 so much, it's frikking horrible. |
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