Wednesday, October 8. 2008The Old-style Playlist Is Dead, Long Live The Old-style Playlist
Yes, i know this sounds contradictory to what markey said in his recent blog, but i felt the need to elaborate somewhat on his statement regarding the old-style playlist being gone. While yes, this is entirely true, and good riddance (as it says), this is mainly because it is far too inflexible. The new playlist is vastly superior in all ways, and i shall spend a few moments describing to the doubters just why this is so.
The most often mentioned dislike with the new playlist is, well, the new playlist - or to be more exact, the default layout used in the new playlist. In my original post of mockups of the new playlist layout, i failed to touch on the topic of the layouting system needed for it. This is really where the whole thing comes together and enables those who dislike the new fanciness to get back to using the old, 90s style playlist view. A bit of graphics always helps with understanding such things, of course, so here you go - description of the essential parts of this below   What you can see in this mockup right at the bottom is a section reading "Available items for header". What this really means is that this is where you design the layout of your playlist. The header is what is shown in the playlist, and while the default set contains two rows of data and a piece of art spanning two rows, what is not so clear in the mockup is that you are able to add new rows and items, splitting the entire layout up in any way you want to. What this means is that if you really want to, you are able to put all the items on a single line, and the album art gets scaled accordingly. This all depends on someone actually implementing this layouting system/manager N.B.: This mockup also shows how sorting will eventually work in the new playlist 
Trackbacks
Trackback specific URI for this entry
No Trackbacks
Comments
Display comments as
(Linear | Threaded)
Ok, so this only relies on someone implementing the layout manager. Which probably won't happen for a pretty long time. (Please prove me wrong).
Also, from what I can see I still will have to have a header for each album. There is a reason that basically every other music player displays the playlist as tabular data: a) the human mind finds it far easier to parse tabular data than changing format every few rows. b) on vertical space is more sparse than horizontal space on 99% of displays. This new view basically displays less information in more space. Some may say it looks prettier but I disagree. I tried to reserve judgement until I tried Amarok 2.0 but sadly, having used both betas, I'm going to have to continue to use 1.4 and trying to move to Jerboa.
The playlist system has undergone some major changes in the last week, and one of the reasons behind the change was to make adding different views, including customizable views, a lot simpler. A fully customizable view won't make it into 2.0, but it will make it into a future version.
Frankly, I neither want nor understand Album Mode. I tend to mix music a lot and use the queue feature. Sometimes I listen to a whole album and even then the extra header adds nothing of value while it takes something of value, vertical space.
Not to rain on your parade, but have you seen any strong positive reactions to Album Mode or the widget feature in the middle? I think you are going off in the wrong direction without feedback :/
I tend to agree with Andreas' and Mike Arthur's blog, the flexibility and power (and consequently speed) that Amarok's playlist gave me has been unbeatable, and the key feature for me.
It would be too sad to have to move to another solution just for this very reason.  The search bar is a very similar thing here, it's perfect to type a couple of words, press enter, and have the right track playing.
Really... You of all people should know better than to criticise something before it's shown its potential. Far be it from me to compare the complexity of a playlist view with the hugeness of Plasma, but i'm sure you can see where i'm going with this.
In short - you will eventually be able to mimic the old listview in the new one, if you really want to. The searching is an entirely different thing, and i don't really want to accuse you of thread hijacking (since you weren't the person who first mentioned it), but: While filtering like you might have known it is gone, an incremental search is coming in stead, which rather than take things out of context like a filter does, shows you the context of your current search position.
I'm perfectly fine to wait one or two minor versions to see it in - the thing that worried me most has been the comments at akademy, where the impression I had has been something like: "we think this approach of using amarok is wrong and you should use it the way we say. the playlist is enforcing it".
Amarok has always been a great way of listening to music my way, instead of the way the other people think that I should. And, sorry for hijacking the thread (I didn't mean to do so =) ), I'll be happy to see and try out the new incremental search when it arrives! Btw, note that I'm talking of the playlist filter, not the collection filter, so when I mentioned it I thought it was connected.
Well, enforce might have been a slightly harsh word to use there - strongly suggest is probably a better term
The current, static layout (that is, the pre-layout manager one which we have now) is indeed one which essentially enforces a certain way of using the player, which is what we designed it to do - but once the layout manager gets implemented, well... then it becomes entirely up to you to shoot yourself in the foot ...again, a bit like plasma, in some ways giggles As for the playlist filter - i know that's what you meant The collection filter is staying, as the use case there is somewhat different
Cool, I'm confident you to do the right thing then, and stick with 1.4 until then.
And I'm sure you'll do... because I know some of you personally, and... well, you'd rather hope of living further away from my place if you don't do it right!  (sebr is on the safe side here).Anyways, you have my trust. Good work! =)
>>> In short - you will eventually be able to mimic the old listview in the new one, if you really want to.
I think that is the right way. In my opinion, the new playlist should be highly configurable and it would be better than the old one. This points are essential: # Grouping of albums should be optional # Artwork in the playlist should be optional # a playlist header like in amarok 1 is an absolute must, with the possibility to add/hide columns. # The position of the playlist and the context view should be interchangeable (playlist in the middle of the window) I cannot imagine to switch to amarok 2 until the playlist offers the same possibilities than the old one. I read a lot about this playlist topic on different places in the net, and I can't remember of anybody (except for the developpers) who said he liked the new playlist better than the old one. Please listen to the feedback of your users!
I am also disappointed with the UI of Amarok 2. As was said, it uses more space to display less information. It simply wastes screen space, which is at a premium on my laptop.
It is also less flexible. (Until the ability to actually configure the inbuilt flexibility exists, it is less flexible.) It's disappointing, because Amarok 1.4's UI was not (IS not) broken; it works well, is efficient, flexible, and powerful. Experimenting with new UI's is fine, but IMHO such experiments should have been tried after porting the tried-and-true to KDE4. If you want to reinvent the wheel, please do it and get it right before throwing out the old wheel. My two cents.
I agree completely. I just gave 2.1 a shot, and it's still in the (to me) unusable/undesirable state that it was a year ago. I hate the new UI - piles of wasted space given over to web integration and the like (which I'm not interested in).
Back to 1.4 for me; until Amarok2 gets fixed or I remove qt3 and find a new music player
What people seem to misunderstand about Amarok 2 is that we really are not attempting to ruin it for anybody. We have simply aimed for the highest common denominator this time rather than piling things on top of an architecture which really could not handle it.
However, to answer your unstated question: the web integration which you so hate, by that i suspect you are referring to the context view, which is not all about web content (current track and albums applets for example aren't anything to do with the intertubes), that is removable in 2.2 (that is, git master).
No, I fully appreciate that your team is working on creating a new version of an extremely polished music player. (for free no less).
My thoughts though are that you're replacing a UI which I consider to be exceptionally good with one that has less utility to me. (let's not bring the backend into it, I'll take your word for ti that it needed replacing) I appreciate that you believe that you're creating a better UI which will suit more people; I have just never met one of these people (and I know a fair number of people who love Amarok 1.4). It is quite distressing to realise that once the qt3 libs are no longer a standard package (2 years from now? 3?) that I will have a choice between this new Amarok and various others (most of which I've tried, but chose Amarok 1.4 over). Just so that you're aware, my preferred use of Amarok 1.4 is either having the Collection or Playlists tab open with the window full-screen so that I can see as many details about the song I'm listening to. I find the Context Tab confusing to look at and unnecessary - I never open it. Thus, I'm glad to hear that the git version has a more modifiable UI. I will give it a try once 2.2 is released.
Please add the ability to hide the garbage drag and drop bucket that appears in the middle of the app.
The only functionality it provides that most users will want is album art. Everything else about it is horrible and most users won't use. It's fine that you can add plasmoids to it but most users won't want that rubbish and just want their playlist laid out in a way that they can visably interpret. The drag playlist feature looks like it's straight out of a budget horror movie. The controls are too big and in the wrong place in the app. Bottom right. Not top left. Please do something about the state of amarok2. It's gone from amarok1 being a key app to lure windows users away to being fugly and unintuitive. Right now, I do not want.
Never change a winning concept. So why on earth change the UI of Amarok 1.4?
The excel view is actually one of the best features 1.4 has! I use it for making live playlist during parties. It gives great overview and I easily can add songs to the list while. I am not interested in the specifics of one song, I am interested in the playlist! The new view looks cluttered and is not logical: collection | one track | some tracks Logical is: collection | some tracks | one track I have tried beta's of Amarok 2 for a while, but I switched back to 1.4 and I will (and cannot) use 2 unless the Excel view returns. I appreciate your work, but it is sad that I will not use it as it is right now.
I'm sorry if I'm just being blind here, but how do I sort a playlist? I see the sketch here saying that I should 'hover over the playlist header'. But beta 3 doesn't have a header... Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by 'header'?
Whatever the case, figuring out how to sort is not intuitive to me.
You are entirely correct - you see a sketch, and the third beta doesn't have a header. That is because this won't be in Amarok 2.0, as the feature is not yet finished
Ah - thank you! Playlist sorting is the one feature left that's holding me off from raving too much about Amarok 2, so I hope to see it soon. Otherwise, the program looks great and seems to be progressing beautifully!
We need the same widget for sorting more sanely in the collection browser, so... no worries, it'll definitely happen
Just having tried (for the fist time) Beta3, I'm quite a bit disappointed.
One of the most important features of Amarok for me has always been the possibility to quickly, visually select and sort tracks, e.g. based on my previously set ratings. I always have tens or hundreds of tracks in my playlist (first selection) and then I use to re-sort and select by different criteria like rating, album, artist, comments, bitrate... With the new playlist style I simply can't figure out how to quickly "scan" through a bigger selection of tracks. Before I can display all this information efficiently in the playlist, I think I'll have to stay with Amarok 1.4.
Another voice of support for the 1.4 'excel view'. It's great that the developers are exploring zany new features - they are after all the ones doing the hard work.
But PLEASE, Please, make it easy to use a view system that mimics the 1.4 style - I think you'll find this is what the vast majority want.
Intenselly agree with "the excel-view as vital concept for making live playlist during parties" (or any other time, of course); this also makes new fanatics: After three gin-tonics, everybody wants to play music on the Amarok: "you just drop your song the last on the list and keep dancing...."; monday morning back at work, they all ask themselves "where is the Windows version.... I can't do that with iTunes!!!"
Well, this functionality still exists with the new playlist - in fact, due to the PopupDropper, this functionality has been put at the forefront of the application
When you start dragging a track from the collection or the files browser, the PopupDropper's top item is Append To Playlist. A much larger hit target, making it much more drunk-person-friendly, surely making this version better for that particular use case
We need the old style. The new thing is drowning in space-wasting fancifulness. I can't stand it.
So, you have number on how much space this new fancifulness is wasting, i take it?
Yes, put a list with tracks from different artist together and every track is shown in two lines on top of each other and I still can't see all the info I had in that oh so frowned upon "excel look". Space wasted: 50% and then some, more like 60%. Also I don't need that middle panel for applets at all but I can't find a way to get rid of it. All I want is a tidy view of all the information I (!) want to see at a glance. There is a reason why spreadsheet apps can present so much information in an meaningful, tidy manner and at the same time look like they look. I appreciate all the work that has gone into Amarok 2 but in this case usability has lost to eye candy and the dreaded disease we-know-better-what-you-want.
Agreed. This playlist change is ridiculous. I can't stand amarok like this, and there isn't really anything else to use instead.
PLEASE bring back "excel" view.
Wonderful that you keep up with current events - because you have obviously seen the recent blog entries with screenshots of amarok 2 with a layout resembling 1.4 very much.
Link? I'd be very interested in seeing this.
http://blog.jasondonenfeld.com/153
I will not upgrade to amarok 2 until the "insert-your-favorite-spreadsheet-here"-playlist returns.
Bring it back, PLEASE.
Just to add another vote for the essentialness of the "Excel format", multi-column, sortable, selectable headings, grid view playlist editor, as in 1.4.10 . If it can be implemented as a "plasmon" (I don't follow KDE development in any detail, but having just migrated to a KDE4-based system I guess those are the weird floating desktop icon things?) - well, I don't care how it's implemented, but Amarok without that feature's just not usable for me. I think that declaring a 2.0 release and shipping without such a fundamental part of the previous UI is a serious error of judgement.
I hear you on the playlist. I don't like the busy new version either, but it will be configurable back to the old style so no worries.
I would also like to cast a vote for being able to remove that weird middle thing. Granted, I've only seen the version of this panel in the "Run KDE in Windows" version of the new Amarok, but I couldn't see any reason for it to be there.
I just installed Amarok 2.1.1 (or it actually came when doing dist-upgrade), and I'm not satisfied. All I want to do is to choose a set of albums or songs from my collection on the playlist, turn on shuffle for all songs and put the player in repeat over the playlist, and also see which songs have been already played.
None of this can be done. Thus, I downgraded to 1.4.10 and will freeze it. Sad but has to be done in order to be able to enjoy music the way I like.
Which is why, of course, you went directly to http://bugs.kde.org/ and entered the request to have a visualisation of whether a track in the playlist has been played added to the program? Good stuff
Sorry but I couldn't, it's responding quite slowly or not at all at the moment
But yes, I'll do that.
nods Good stuff - glad to hear it!
Hope you'll find your way to 2 at some point, it really is a much more solid program in most important ways (missing features aside, of course )
Does anyone know how get the excel-view back? It should be possible by now?
Please define the word "should" in this context. Is it "it was promised to happen by now by people I gave money to make that promise" or is it "i wrote a patch which implements the feature"?
Seriously, though, 2.2 will have selectable layouts and such, so if you're running the git version, you should be able to select or create a layout to suit you
It is: i've seen screenshots of a developer somewhere were he explains how to get a kind of excel screen. I've never be able to reproduce it.
That would be because you are not running a new enough version, the button for it is in the playlist toolbar just as he shows in the video
|
Amarok LinksCalendar
QuicksearchCategoriesSyndicate This BlogBlog AdministrationWe Listen To... Powered by
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
