Sunday, September 16. 2007Homeless People
Wtf is going on with our society? I am living in Germany, one of the richest countries in the world. Life is good here. It's common here to have a nice flat, wear beautiful clothing and to drive comfortable cars like Mercedes. We should not complain. And yet, life isn't good for everyone here. There is a small minority of people who cannot afford to buy a car, or a flat, or nice clothes; in fact they cannot afford to buy food to survive the day.
When I'm strolling around our shopping mile, I see this fat guy walking, stuffing his fat face with food to get fatter. And then I see this thin guy, who's sitting on the ground. Begging for money. Oh and this guy has no feet, and no legs. He's sitting there all day, begging for people to give him some money. To survive another day. I'm asking myself what's going on with this country. Does the rich guy need another Mercedes, or could he afford to give 10 Euros per month to keep the guy without legs from starving? Personally, I'm not sure what the solution to the poverty problem is. Myself I'm not rich; in fact at times I'm quite poor as well, but I try to help homeless people where I can. And still I realize that this isn't a real solution. Giving some bucks to a guy is just a very temporary remedy. Our oh-so-smart society must be able to come up with a better plan. Trackbacks
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Giving money to those sometimes its more harmful than you think. The money could be used to buy drinks or drugs. It might be that somebody collects the money from those beggers and buys a Mercedes by just using the mercy of all the people. They don't hesitate to use children or people with missing body parts to get money from the "normal" people.
I know what I'm saying as I see similar things VERY often in my country. And I can say that - unfortunately - many beggers in the richer countries are from here... Actually it's easy to find out who is begging for food, and this is what I try to do here as well: don't give money, give food. If they happily accept, they are really starving. If you give some food and you see that they are not happy for it (sometimes they even throw it away!), just forget it and move forward. The real solution is in the hands of the government: first get rid of those who are abusing of the poor, second help the real poor people who are in a need of a shelter and food. Sure, it's harder to do than to write it down, but I'm pretty sure just giving some money to this people will not help the situation, but even worsen it.
And the government does a lot to try and help people. I dunno how it is in Germany (but I suspect not much different), but in the Netherlands you gotta WANT to live on the streets to do so...
I'm not saying the government gives you everything just for nothing, but they help a lot.
Same in the USA. I just don't understand how this thing can happen in the richest contry in the Earth. I don't agree to give them money on the street since most will use it for drugs and alcohol but we should provide more help as a sociaty. http://zsuzsasphotos.blogspot.com
So if these people sometimes buy alcohol from the money, does it condemn them? Heck, I like to buy alcohol, and I have a flat, and nice clothes. The homeless guy is in a considerably more desperate state than I am. Isn't it normal that he tries to soothe himself at times with some alc?
Give me a break.
Damn right it condemns them. Would you donate to a charity that wasted the money "only sometimes"? Hell no. If they can't take the initiative to improve their situations when given the opportunity, and of course they are of sound mind, then FUCK THEM.
Hm, most of the homeless people, at least in western european countries, not only suffer from economic problems, but first and foremost from psychological ones. It can't be economical only aspects, because everyone without a fortune and income can get the ordinary support for housing and living (Harz IV in germany, which is about 700 euros for an unmarried person, if housing subsidies are taken into account, IIRC). That is sufficient to not having to sleep under bridges as well as getting enough food for most people.
The question is: how to help these people best? By giving them money, or encouraging them to seek help?
For sure it condemns them. If they ask money telling you that they are starving or need clothes or whatever, and as soon as they gather enough for a drink they go and buy some drink...that makes them a liar and I think I have the right to condemn them.
Being poor doesn't mean you have to live on the streets. There are many poor people around Eastern Europe, much poorer than you might think it can happen in the EU (and yes, they are EU citizens). Still they can live in a decent way, without going on the streets . Some of them need help from the society and many of them get help from them, if not from the government, from the family, if not from the family, from the neighbors. But there are many who were not that poor and now live on the streets, either because of the alcohol, or because of gambling or just because some bad decisions in their life. For the first category, who lost their places due to some addiction giving money usually doesn't help, they would just spend for the same things. They need more serious help to recover (pshychologist, hospitalization, for example). Those who lost because e.g. they guaranteed a loan with their house, are usually trying to recover and not stand all day on the street to get some cash. And there is the category I told, where disabled people and children are pushed to the street to make money for others. I don't want to support this kind of criminality. Anytime I would help a person who needs help, but not with giving money because from my experience I cannot trust them. If they ask for food, I give food. If they ask for clothes, I try to give them clothes. If they ask for medicine, I might go with them to a pharmacy to buy medicine, although nobody asked me to do something like that (but I know a story when somebody ask for alcohol to disinfect his hand, but actually his hand had nothing, he just wanted to drink it...) If they ask for money, they don't get anything. Some try to give something back, like a newspaper or toys in exchange of the money. That is better, but I'm still afraid this is a business of somebody and those who need help don't get enough. I could tell stories through pages. Stories that I experienced myself, or that you can see daily in the TV. Certainly I'm happy to hear that in some countries the situation is much better and especially those who want to have a better life have the chance to try it and not sleep on the streets.
Couldn't agree more. And there are cases I know here in bigger cities in Poland where somone brings beggers (usually foreigners - womens with small kids) with relatively new cars in the morning- to "work" on the front of churches or in other centres. Yes, I confirm the cases where children throw away bread or cake or apple people offered them...
Andreas, this activity did a harm to the way how your country is typically perceived. As unfortunate as it sounds, in the same time there is serious amount of poverty among children in small Polish villages (it's irresponsible parents, education system tries to deal with this somehow). However, many of us think here it is sometimes better to be wrong 4 times and lost the money than to refuse giving helping hand to one person truly in need.
I saw a begger the other day; asking me for food when I was eating an ice cream in the part. Sorry, can't really split an ice cream :/
And then she sat with her friends and opened a can of beer. Where one pint of beer can easily buy you bread for the whole day. Its not that this person is starving; its that her priorities are messed up. Which certainly will not be remedied by anything you or I do.
I also think that you -at least- have to avoid asking the state for help to avoid getting it. There is social housing, and I am sure that the inhabitants of social housing get enough money to buy some food, too. The German state is not that inhumane. It might force you to do some really crappy work for your money, though. I can understand that begging is better than some work that the state might want you to do, and I kind of understand that. I'm a lazy bastard myself. That's not a reason to give money to beggars, though. Does that sound heartless? Maybe it is.
How do you translate "Das Leben ist kein Ponyhof" ? :p Countries with less social welfare often have a culture of private philantropy, but that's BS. If somebody gets any of that money will depend on such things as cuteness (think of the children :] ), fashion, the media, and other of quasi-random factors. That is very unfair.
Yeah right. Continue to live in your fantasy world.
If what you wrote is true, why do we have any homeless people at all? Have you ever considered that there is a "downward spiral" effect going on? It must be hard to understand.
Have you ever spoken to people who live in what you call "social housing"? Have you ever calculated their costs (they pay for this, meaning the government deducts it from their income)? Before assuming that the common belief in Germany that we are a humane society, much better than most others, is in fact true, some experience with such things would be very helpful. I found it incredibly devastating to find out in which ways people are systematically discouraged and hindered to lead a happy life (and for most this will include work, too).
Your premise is wrong. Having a nice flat, clothing a Mercedes is rather the exemption than the norm. And the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing, with the interest as a driving force. Of course there are enough people consuming and buying stuff on credit, but only to the point when they're bankrupt.
Regarding "the fat guy": He isn't necessarily the rich guy. Obesity is becoming the disease of the poor people, which can be seen best in the USA where people with low income are preferring cheap fast food and are disproportionally fatter. And most of the people begging should not be struggling to survive another day. E.g. there are plenty soup kitchens in most big cities and sleeping possibilities. The choose not to go there. At least not when they're sitting in the shopping mile. People are sitting there voluntarily for the spare money. And I guess living on the street also makes it harder to integrate them back into society (even with the spare money). Yes, chicken-egg problem with regard to living there and getting away from there, but that's another question. By the way, most disabled people in the shopping miles are from Eastern Europe and are better off here with the spare change than with their disability pension there -- if it wasn't for the criminal people who bring them here in the first place and take their money. I can highly recommend reading this article on that topic (in German), it's very enlightening (see the last sentence), at least it was for me. It's not there to change your mind but I'm very sure you'll ask yourself very different and more advanced questions afterwards. http://www.owih.org/include.php?path=forum/showthread.php&threadid=484&changestyle=1 (it's readable/understandable in translated state, too) http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.owih.org%2Finclude.php%3Fpath%3Dforum%2Fshowthread.php%26threadid%3D484%26changestyle%3D1&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8 But I think the consequences of Hartz IV and the huge number of people being pushed at the edge of society (who are about to fall over/being left behind) are a much more pressing topic, also regarding the impact on the whole society, rather than the much more limited number of people actually living on the street and outside of the society, which has already existed since ages.
Found a news article specialized on disabled beggars from Eastern Europe with an organized criminal background with many facts as reported by the police
http://www.bayerische-staatszeitung.de/index.jsp?MenuID=13&rubrikID=4&artikelID=3083 http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bayerische-staatszeitung.de%2Findex.jsp%3FMenuID%3D13%26rubrikID%3D4%26artikelID%3D3083&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8
What makes me wonder is why are there people living in the streets, alone? In the worst of cases, I have seen a WHOLE FAMILY living on the streets and I can attribute that to severe poverty. But those alone? Don't they have any family to take them in?
We can all ask why the hell people don't care anymore. That's true, but I just can't see why people get to simply ignore their kin. Those people on the streets have to have some sort of family they were born to, right? If people ignore others inside their own family circle then this is not only a social problem, but also a moral problem!
Indeed. Most beggars here shop in the most expensive stores... It's about priorities, not wanting to live a 'normal, boring life', stuff like that. I'm not gonna support them in that, sorry.
sure it ain't beautiful, but again, if Germany is like the Netherlands in this regard, you must WANT to live on the streets, or entirely unable to take care of yourself AND not want to be hospitalized in an institution (and just be normal and healthy enough the judge won't allow the government to force you to enter a home).
If you want to do something against it you have to vote for a left-wing party, in Germany either "Die neue Linke" or DKP, as these two parties are the only ones (to my knowledge), which offer an alternative to capitalism.
Adversity is a system-immanent problem in our society. You cannot help the poor as it is against finance principles, all social engagement is non-economical and anti-liberal and additionally it only manifests the problem. This is not some funny opinion, but a rationally proven theory. If you are interested in it, I recommend Theodor W. Adornos Essays "Gesellschaftstheorie und Kulturkritik" and Herbert Marcuse's "Der eindimensionale Mensch". They are easy to read and give you an idea of the problem. I like to read them very much at the moment. But sadly, programmers care seldom. (I've used a funny pseudonym, but will watch this posting and post under the same pseudonym.) To Anonx,jospoortvliet: This is a typical article against beggars. The point is not that they are organized and come from eastern Europe to sit there, but that it is possible that people live like that and even if they do in Romania. Articles like that also tend to give you opinions like they are all organized. This is definetly wrong and won't help the real poor. Have you ever been as a beggar to a soup kitchen? People living on the streets have a long way behind them and they are often treated badly. Many are seriously harmed and there is no way back to a normal life for them. But it is completely wrong to discuss about the fate of a single beggar and to reduce the problem to crime. And the way to get a beggar is far away from being impossible, even in the Netherlands. You can not compare your situation with the situation, thoughts and experiences of the beggar. This only obscures the problem. It is as already said above, a social problem, which will not be fixed by some simple measure and it is not their fault. Seeing the organized beggars of Romania here only makes the adversity which is a result of the German wealthyness visible. Have a look about that here: 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty
I'm sorry, 'adam smith' but you should read up on developments in economics since 1900.
Social engagement is NOT anti-liberal or anti-economical. Economics doesn't say ANYTHING about ethics - it's a system to organize things, not judge them. It's so tiring to read again and again from ppl about kapitalism and economics and socialism and whatever, and seeing how they don't understand it at all. Not helping ppl who are less lucky is an economical waste, as those would be able to work again with some help and repay it in time. And helping those who can't ever work at all is just social and morally right, and even the US does that. has nothing to do with having a market system to organize your production or not. More on topic, I'm not saying the life of a beggar is great. But if they want out of it, there are many ways to do it. Of course, they WILL have to take care of themselves. you know, live on a monthly allowance -> don't spend it in 1 day. Stuff like that often is simply NOT WHAT THEY WANT. So voting leftwing (which means trowing money at them) won't make a difference. They spend it anyway, and won't stop begging - they WANT to. If they wouldn't, they whouldn't have to. That's different in other countries, sure. But do you have any idea how much money you can get in the Netherlands just because you don't have a job?
[quotation]Social engagement is NOT anti-liberal or anti-economical. Economics doesn't say ANYTHING about ethics - it's a system to organize things, not judge them.[/quotation]
LOL, if you have studied economics, than you should know better. Of course one can claim that position as people usually do, especially the so called conservatives, who don't have a problem like that and live quite comfortably. Since when is ethics a Metasystem for acting? If you act on a capital market liberally, than you try to maximize your profit. If you define "social engagement" as getting more profit out of people, who have already been exploited in the past, then you are right, we have it and it works. So if the beggar still has the ability to work, he could get a job. But have you ever thought about physical or psychological incompatible people? They have worked for 20 years in a factory, have never gotten anywhere with it or have big psychological problems. Many people have that in our society and this is due to the capitalistic system, too. Of course, you say no and argue that psychological problems are always personal problems, they have to solve them themselves and it is their fault. You simply never experienced it like they did. But social engagement itself, without getting profit for it, b.t.w. the churches make money out of it, IS anti-liberal and anti-economical. What would you do with a beggar being unable to work anymore, because he has been intoxicated by working in a chemical factory and having psychological problems, as he has been treated bad for most of his lifetime? You can't expect to get money from him. To help would be truely anti-economical. But besides that you are right, people are tried to be kept in the system as long as they can work. Adversity is not about beggars in special, but in a general problem. We have over 2 million children living in poverty in Germany as to recent studies. And this even though our economy is one of the world's largest. But i've said above that adversity is not a big problem in western Europe as there is imperialism and the poor people of the world are simply somewhere else.
Our oh-so-smart society doesn't give a shit. Me, myself and I are the three pillars of our oh-so-smart society.
Well, I'm just wondering why I don't see such pictures here in Switzerland? Is my country so much different? There are beggars in the street, but they are rare and obviously not Swiss, because they don't even speak on of the four(4) Swiss languages. (Trust me, I speak three of them and understand the fourth). Usually these people are exploited by others who bring them in and place them strategically.
But of course, begging is forbidden in Switzerland, you are usually asked to leave as soon as police shows up, and they show up very fast. Strangly, most of these "beggars" flee as soon as they catch a glimps of a police uniform, so they most likely have something to hide, else why would they flee? If they do not have some ID the police arrests them, then checks with the social services who then take care or refers people to the "Foreigners police" (Fremdenpolizei) who then check if these people have a humanitarian reason to be in Switzerland. If all checks fail, they are expulsed from CH. The only other beggars one can see in Switzerland are junkies (and alcool dependant) who refuse to be helped. Of course the latter represent a situation which is almost impossible to solve, as these people get social assistance but as they refuse to be taken care of and treat their medical problem, it's their choice to beg. There is no real need for. And, strangely but truely, there is no homless problem in Switzerland that would be due to poverty and lack of a social network. I checked all the above statements with a friend of mine who is a psychologist and works for the social services of my hometown, she confirmed my impression. So why is there such a problem in Germany? I can only guess and think that most of you have a point. Unfortunately, I don't think that any left governement would solve that, Germany already has been governed by SPD for several years and it changed nothing...and "Die Linke" is not what I would choose if I were a German citizen, because this party gathers many people from the former totalitarian party (SED) and you not really want a new totalitarian state, dont you? Unfortunately, and history has shown that several times, all far left and far right political systems are the worst choice to make if you care for Human Rights! And we are talking about human rights here, as having a home, enough to eat and clothing are basic human rights.
Well, maybe Switzerland has less people to organize, maybe Switzerland has kept much money during and after WWII from homeless people, maybe it's more restrictive to homeless people in some way, maybe you didn't have seen every corner in your marvelous homeland, maybe Switzerland didn't has to handle something like the reunion (Wiedervereinigung) in times of globaliziation, maybe you never sufferd hunger, discrimination or even unemployment a long time, maybe you don't have much experience of life, maybe more people who are concerned of should talk about poverty, maybe you have to know that after WWII manymanymany nazis (also in Germany) continued working as kanzlers, lawyers, politicians e.g. in the CDU/CSU (christian democratic union), journalists, doctors etc. whose pensions are paid from democrats and maybe you remember to babble about totalitarism next time, maybe you should read some other newspapers and other source of information (hint 1: DIE LINKE is a democratic party, hint 2: the bayerische-staatszeitung isn't really a witty source), maybe this place is the wrong place to discuss such serious themes, maybe capitalism is not the end of history, maybe the terrorist of these days are products of the war against the communists in Afghanistan and maybe your world view is very modern, maybe the SPD isn't a social party anymore (maybe you don't know, that Schröder, as the former Kanzler of Germany, is working for one of the famous maffia organisation, known as Gazprom), maybe we are talking about different things (I've seen origin old german people in german towns begging for money, I've seen human digging for food in public garbage cans), maybe it's easier to enjoy life while hiding real life, maybe tomorrow it will rain (western bombs somewhere in the rest of the world).
I recommend everyone to watch the marvelous movie "YES" from Sally Potter! Maybe this story will show us something, which most of the neoliberal press and their owners won't ever tell.
your comment made reading the 'discussion' almost bearable (i.e., not totally depressing). thanks for bringing sanity to the table.
Severely disabled people from some countries are being actively smuggled into Europe.
The guy you see on the street is certainly an illegal alien, and likely a slave to boot. The supply of disabled people is so large as to be practically unlimited, although according to many reports some cripples are actually manufactured on demand in places like India. where kids get mangled on purpose by their "minders". AFAIK no purpose-disabled people have made their way into Europe. Every penny you put in a beggar's hands will (best case) attract more to a country where the cost of living and the carbon footprint are 10x more than at home - where multilateral and NG organizations stand a better chance of improving his or her future. Worst case, you're funding a racket. This without even beginning to address the possibly larger, but also probably less dramatic issue of the large proportion of Sinti and Roma who for cultural reasons of their own stay unemployable and live at the margin of society. Terrible situation.
I am most likely older than most of your comment-er's. I can recall a time when I believed in Pres. Johnson's war on poverty. The US spent billons and all we did was make it worse. Today, we have more homeless and more unhappy people. Providing money does not work!
I worked in a hostel for homeless people as replacement for my military service and i can tell you: keep your money to yourself.
If you are homeless in germany you get about 10 EUR cash every day. If you want to quit the life on the streets there are plenty possibilites. But if you want to use one of those there are certain liabilities (like trying to get a job etc.) which most of the homeless don't like. With the money they earn with begging they only buy alcohol (I saw that hundreds of times)
In reply to the last commentators.
Do you also remember the slogan: "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" Many resources and much of the money, which was needed for the Great-Society-Program, were wasted in the Vietnam War. As a part of the Great-Society-Program and in comparison with the Vietnam War you also should spot that the War on Poverty was short-dated. Finally not you, but your arguments and the way of thinking are most likely the oldest I've heard. I know people older than NINETY YERAS and their opinion and their experience of life is way different to the view you win from history. Now you get the idea? Your age is irrelevant. Providing money is not the solution, it's only one step to fight poverty. Don't forget fighting corruption, controlling cash flow, preventing abuse of monopoly power, equal opportunities in education, development and sociocultural background for ALL !!!, etc.pp. Book-recommendations for the so-called economists here: 1. "Small is beautiful" from "Ernst Friedrich Schumacher" 2. "Development as Freedom" from "Amartya Sen" 3. "Globalization and Its Discontents" from "Joseph E. Stiglitz" and many many more; just take a look at your next bookstore. Reply to henrik: "With the money they earn with begging they only buy alcohol" ... So, you might be one of the youngest at that corner? Of course, they buy alcohol, you ignorant! Alcoholism is a disease and not a hobby! Do you know any story behind these pariahs, too? What kind of job did you do there? Definitely not as a qualified social worker, but surely as a caretaker without any responsibleness? And for sure! These homeless people are the first who will get a job in Germany, where nowaday we have millions of job-seekers and welfare recipients (Hartz-IV-Empfänger)! As you think 10 EUR per day is way enough to live in Germany, I wish you you will make this experience too, for man years! Maybe I will donate you a bottle of beer.
It's an amply argument. The problem not only lies with the homeless but also with the society. I've been out of work for more than a year, after the internet bubble, and I can tell you that it was a nightmare, which could have let me down really badly. I did get out of it because I have a supportive familly (which is actually way more important than the state, unconditionnal support is what you need), but also because I had enough money to invest in myself. I can only think of what could have happened if I did not have both. And I find it really easy to understand the spiralling down effect. Go and get interviews where people look at you and don't find you good enough, or worse, too good (when you go for those crap jobs you think homeless refuse) and refuse to hire you cause you don't fit... a streak of bad luck and you are out.
Those people who say to the homeless go and find a job are probably the same ones who would not hire a guy who looks shabby, is not experienced for the job (and too old, too young, whatever) and this two or three years gap in his CV that look dodgy. The same goes with people who went to jail. Society does not like outcasts, so don't go and blame it solely on them. Sure they have a degree of responsibility... So, I agree, money is not the answer, and governments, or individuals cannot just spend the money and hope, eventhough it's easy and guilt free, you need to have an environment that will 'welcome' these people back into normallity and a lot of that is really hard to put in place. Sadly people are racist, and look down on people they see as failures, and refuse to give them opportunities to get out of their misery. I know many companies that use the past behaviour is predictive of the future behaviour principle to hire people. What do you think they would do with a guy who's been on the street? And if I was a beggar, I would drink and smoke. You may blame them for that but between being crazy and depressed and drugged, I would chose the later. Don't forget that by that time, all of these guys would have had many failed attempts at getting back on track. No one likes to be a piece of shit.
Could I ask a question - have any of you ever lived on the streets. I was on and off the streets for over 15 years... from 10 years old. For a start - was it my fault, when I was a kid?
And when i was a teenager or an adult do you know how many times I was beaten up for the money or clothes I had on me. People condemn young people who are homeless saying "get a job" or "don't do drugs" - I never took drugs I'd seen what they did to my mom. And I did get a job, eventually, when someone came (who I am still in contact with) and took me to a womens shelter. I had no education, no skills, nothing. Next year I hope I can go to University as a mature student. Yes, my life is much better, but no matter how much I wanted to fix it - I couldn't do it alone, not without help. And you know what? If you have never lived on the streets then you CANNOT understand what that is like. You just can't.
Hey, I don't say there shouldn't be a lot of help available for homeless people! I know in the Netherlands, there is.
That's why I really do believe most living on the streets in the Netherlands do it by free will, OR have a psychological problem not grave enough to allow forced hospitalization but too much to be able to function normally. Of course, the last group also doesn't want to be helped (you have to actively refuse to be admitted to a psych hospital, after all, if you're into troubles). It's not even about getting a job here, we have social services to take care for those without a job. It's not a huge amount of money, but definitely enough to live off.
I want to say something about stubid homeless people that are to lazy to work . I wound give them shit . Most of them are wine os or drug attacks . I know I have been there .I wont give a homeless person shit .They are lazy fuckin low lifes and need to get a job instead of bumming off people
it dosent mater to me if i giv a beger money and he runs around the corner and gits a bear or high i know i did the righ thing and what he did with it well he will have to anser to GOD
I think we should stop looking at other pockets and start working. You know the biggest problem disabled people in way inside their mind. They thought we are useless part of this society and can’t live without the help of able people.
I know we have lot of physical barriers but take these barriers as challenge and don’t advantage of our physical disability by start doing bagging. Govt is already doing lot for us but we never try to establish our self as useful part of society because we need easy money by spreading our hands
I think the Gornment is the blame for HJomelessness. If they were to give the subject a little more thought Homelessness could have been cleared up years ago!!! please tell me wht you think of this comment!
Maybe the real solution is too save the money out of your pocket and give it to someone willing to research and develop a "Cure" or treatment for these medical disorders like schizo that make so many homeless. That would take many off the streets who don't really want to be there.
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