Friday, September 14. 2007
Weekly status update II
As promised, here is once again a small update of what I have been spending the last week of Amarok hacking doing.
This week I have generally been diving a bit deeper into the Amarok and even kdelibs code to debug some pretty serious issues. The KIO system is in a bit better shape than it was at the beginning of the week, thanks to KDE dev. Thiago, and as I use this intensively for the services, Magnatune not least of which, this is really good news.
Other cool stuff that has happened over the week:
- SVG artwork. Our new artist Lee really came through for us this week with a load of new scalable vector graphics (SVG's) that has been integrated into Amarok. I worked on the main tool bar and the new service list backgrounds while Mark pulled some cool hacks with manipulating SVG's in real time to achieve a nice smooth animation of the new sidebar buttons. This new artwork can be seen in the screenshots below.
- SVG caching. It turns out that when you use as many SVG images as we do now, propper caching becomes very important. So I spent the better part of a day caching everything I could get my hands on, to great effect. Performance is much better in most cases now. We still do have some issues with the cache emptying itself every once in a while, causing lag as everything needs to be re-rendered, but this concern is shared with the plasma crew, so hopefully a solution is in the works.
- Playlist performance. Our new playlist had a nasty habit of recursively redrawing itself causing 100% constant cpu load as soon as any tracks were added to it. This was fixed.
- Service Framework / mp3tunes service. As the KIO issues had been keeping me from doing more real work on the dynamic fetching aspects of the service framework, I figured now would be a good time. The results of this is that the service framework is now much more usable for writing almost any kind of service imaginable. As a proof of concept I finished up the mp3tunes oboe locker service that I have had lying around for a while, and actually got it working perfectly in the space of just a few hours. Browsing and streaming from the locker inside Amarok is cooool!
- Playlist loader. One piece of code that had not yet been ported was the old playlist loader. This is needed in order to load any kind of playlist file as well as listen to many streaming radio stations. I have spent all day today ripping the old one apart and building a new, hopefully much simpler version. The new one currently only supports local and remote m3u and pls files, but at least it is working! This was also the last ingredient needed to make listening to shoutcast stations possible in Amarok2!
I guess these are the highlights. And now, onto the moment you have all been waiting for, screenies!!!
Over and out!
This week I have generally been diving a bit deeper into the Amarok and even kdelibs code to debug some pretty serious issues. The KIO system is in a bit better shape than it was at the beginning of the week, thanks to KDE dev. Thiago, and as I use this intensively for the services, Magnatune not least of which, this is really good news.
Other cool stuff that has happened over the week:
- SVG artwork. Our new artist Lee really came through for us this week with a load of new scalable vector graphics (SVG's) that has been integrated into Amarok. I worked on the main tool bar and the new service list backgrounds while Mark pulled some cool hacks with manipulating SVG's in real time to achieve a nice smooth animation of the new sidebar buttons. This new artwork can be seen in the screenshots below.
- SVG caching. It turns out that when you use as many SVG images as we do now, propper caching becomes very important. So I spent the better part of a day caching everything I could get my hands on, to great effect. Performance is much better in most cases now. We still do have some issues with the cache emptying itself every once in a while, causing lag as everything needs to be re-rendered, but this concern is shared with the plasma crew, so hopefully a solution is in the works.
- Playlist performance. Our new playlist had a nasty habit of recursively redrawing itself causing 100% constant cpu load as soon as any tracks were added to it. This was fixed.
- Service Framework / mp3tunes service. As the KIO issues had been keeping me from doing more real work on the dynamic fetching aspects of the service framework, I figured now would be a good time. The results of this is that the service framework is now much more usable for writing almost any kind of service imaginable. As a proof of concept I finished up the mp3tunes oboe locker service that I have had lying around for a while, and actually got it working perfectly in the space of just a few hours. Browsing and streaming from the locker inside Amarok is cooool!
- Playlist loader. One piece of code that had not yet been ported was the old playlist loader. This is needed in order to load any kind of playlist file as well as listen to many streaming radio stations. I have spent all day today ripping the old one apart and building a new, hopefully much simpler version. The new one currently only supports local and remote m3u and pls files, but at least it is working!
This was also the last ingredient needed to make listening to shoutcast stations possible in Amarok2!I guess these are the highlights. And now, onto the moment you have all been waiting for, screenies!!!
All the new SVG's are visible here. Amarok is starting to look really good I think!
Rocking out while listening to music streamed directly from my mp3tunes locker
Over and out!
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Wow, those screenies look great... If I go home tonight and svn up * and rebuild is that what I'll see?
FWIW I've never really looked at magnatunes before, but just for footing the bill for some amarok development it's worth checking them out and buying a few tracks!
FWIW I've never really looked at magnatunes before, but just for footing the bill for some amarok development it's worth checking them out and buying a few tracks!
Yes, the screenshots are fresh and unmodified of my development version of Amarok. So if you go home and build the current trunk with up to date KDE4 libraries, this is what you will see!
I am sure Magnatune would appreciate that!
I am sure Magnatune would appreciate that!
I must say I like the screenies. The only thing I still don't like is the top bar. The way amarok had that bunch of buttons at the bottom of the screen worked fine for me 
This wastes so much space, I hope you guys DO something with it or make it smaller...
BTW don't you love oxygen? it's colorful widgets are cool and inspiring...
This wastes so much space, I hope you guys DO something with it or make it smaller...
BTW don't you love oxygen? it's colorful widgets are cool and inspiring...
No, I hate oxygen.
Its a huge amount of hype with a little amount of reward. The style (even if it does get completed for 4.0) is horrible, why only use white when color monitors came about over fifteen years ago?
Its a huge amount of hype with a little amount of reward. The style (even if it does get completed for 4.0) is horrible, why only use white when color monitors came about over fifteen years ago?
God, what a troll. Come on, it isn't even white!
http://wadejolson.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/new_style_scroll.png
However, I don't like the current look of amarok.
-The round tabs at the left side, are horrible.
-Your icons aren't bad, but compare them with all the others Oxygen icons, you should ask for a little of help.
-I'm not a big fan of the controls on top, but I must say that the new time scrollbar is a lot better!
-The playlist with Album Cover... isn't a waste of space? I probably will see 10 elements with the same cover.
-Where is the search box?
Outsideof those "little details" the rest is fine. I want to see more of that Plasma Context Browse
Cheers.
http://wadejolson.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/new_style_scroll.png
However, I don't like the current look of amarok.
-The round tabs at the left side, are horrible.
-Your icons aren't bad, but compare them with all the others Oxygen icons, you should ask for a little of help.
-I'm not a big fan of the controls on top, but I must say that the new time scrollbar is a lot better!
-The playlist with Album Cover... isn't a waste of space? I probably will see 10 elements with the same cover.
-Where is the search box?
Outsideof those "little details" the rest is fine. I want to see more of that Plasma Context Browse
Cheers.
As for the icons: We are actually using Oxygen icons now. Our old icon theme is basically deprecated, but currently still available.
Why Nikolaj chooses this for screenshots I don't know Maybe because Oxygen is still incomplete and doesn't cover all of our icons.
PS: We still need artists! Come join us.
Why Nikolaj chooses this for screenshots I don't know
Maybe because Oxygen is still incomplete and doesn't cover all of our icons.PS: We still need artists! Come join us.
Oh, thats easy to answer... I had to delete my Amarok config files yesterday and forgot to switch to Oxygen icons before taking the screenshot...
I more or less agree with you regarding the top bar. In other words, its somewhat controversial within Team Amarok as well.
//Now I have the Team America theme song in my head but with "Amarok, Fuck Yea!"
//Now I have the Team America theme song in my head but with "Amarok, Fuck Yea!"
I really like the new artwork and the layout.
Thank you for your weekly status update. This is very interesting
Thank you for your weekly status update. This is very interesting
Hi,
To my mind, the biggest problem with the new design is that most of people now listen to full album and not single tracks.
A few years ago, they used to listen to full albums on the hi-fi system, and a few tracks grabbed on the internet on their computer.
Old softs as Winamp were convenient to play playlists of tracks.
Now people plug their computer to the hi-fi system and listen their albums on their computer, with Amarok.
They associate album covers to their albums, and want to do playlists of albums.
With Amarok 1.x, they could do it, though the playlist was design for single tracks.
With the new Amarok 2.0, it will be much more difficult, given the height of each line of the playlist.
What I propose is to keep big lines in the playlist, but that these lines can stands for a single track, or a full album.
In the case of a full album, the line would be expandable, with a + button or something.
What do you think about it?
Eric
To my mind, the biggest problem with the new design is that most of people now listen to full album and not single tracks.
A few years ago, they used to listen to full albums on the hi-fi system, and a few tracks grabbed on the internet on their computer.
Old softs as Winamp were convenient to play playlists of tracks.
Now people plug their computer to the hi-fi system and listen their albums on their computer, with Amarok.
They associate album covers to their albums, and want to do playlists of albums.
With Amarok 1.x, they could do it, though the playlist was design for single tracks.
With the new Amarok 2.0, it will be much more difficult, given the height of each line of the playlist.
What I propose is to keep big lines in the playlist, but that these lines can stands for a single track, or a full album.
In the case of a full album, the line would be expandable, with a + button or something.
What do you think about it?
Eric
We have actually already discussed sometihng like an album being a group of tracks in the playlist. I personally imagine something where you would show the album cover, and then have just one line of text for each track in the album.
As the playlist is based on a QGraphicsView, we can do basically whatever we feel like with it.
As the playlist is based on a QGraphicsView, we can do basically whatever we feel like with it.
I fully agree with Eric Pignet! This also hasn't been there yet, although iTunes and WMP11 both can group the playlist/library by icons. But treating albums like tracks (just like one used to treat CDs), as proposed, would be awesome!
A compromise could be:
- a big line for each album added to the playlist, expendable on demand
- the album would be automatically expended to a list of single lines when the album is actually played, so that you can see which track is played, which is the following...
Anyway, I'm happy to see that you consider your users' point of view and that you are aware of the problem of big lines when listening to full albums
- a big line for each album added to the playlist, expendable on demand
- the album would be automatically expended to a list of single lines when the album is actually played, so that you can see which track is played, which is the following...
Anyway, I'm happy to see that you consider your users' point of view and that you are aware of the problem of big lines when listening to full albums
It was actually part of the original plan: http://tinyurl.com/yo7lkv
Does SVG artwork now basically mean replacing all the native widgets with horrible different ones that don't fit in AT ALL with the rest of the desktop?
I thought the FOSS community was beyond the horrific skinning of all your applications to make them look different from every other application.
I'm sorry to rain on your parade but I think, visually, the new Amarok looks hideous.
I really hope there is a way to use native widgets and look more like a KDE application rather than the blue everywhere. What if the rest of my desktop is red? What if I've customised all the other KDE applications to a state that horribly clashes with Amarok's colours?
I hope there are answers to these questions...
I thought the FOSS community was beyond the horrific skinning of all your applications to make them look different from every other application.
I'm sorry to rain on your parade but I think, visually, the new Amarok looks hideous.
I really hope there is a way to use native widgets and look more like a KDE application rather than the blue everywhere. What if the rest of my desktop is red? What if I've customised all the other KDE applications to a state that horribly clashes with Amarok's colours?
I hope there are answers to these questions...
No, it does not mean that. It means we're spicing up certain parts of the interface with SVG, like background graphics. We do not replace replace complete widgets with SVG.
We do very well realize that standardized widgets from Qt provide many advantages, don't worry about it. But Amarok is a media player, not a word processor. We (and many users) expect a media player to look a bit sexy. Amarok has always been about working and looking good. So we continue this tradition
We do very well realize that standardized widgets from Qt provide many advantages, don't worry about it. But Amarok is a media player, not a word processor. We (and many users) expect a media player to look a bit sexy. Amarok has always been about working and looking good. So we continue this tradition
So, who do you think needs the thickest skin out of KDE devs? It probably comes down to a contest between the Amarok devs, the oxygen artists and the plasma devs as to who receives the most rude, uncalled for criticism of their partially complete work by the peanut gallery (of which I too am a member, though I like to think at least a somewhat civil one)
If you don't like something that someone else is giving you for free (in both senses of the word) then at least have the basic manners to air any criticisms in a somewhat constructive manner, using basic manners. Really, what does 'the new Amarok looks hideous' contribute? what possible help is that to a project you obviously care enough about to be following a developer's blog? Really, basic manners are so hard?
If you don't like something that someone else is giving you for free (in both senses of the word) then at least have the basic manners to air any criticisms in a somewhat constructive manner, using basic manners. Really, what does 'the new Amarok looks hideous' contribute? what possible help is that to a project you obviously care enough about to be following a developer's blog? Really, basic manners are so hard?
I think I also explained what looks hideous. The colours, the lack of native theming but if you want me to expand further I will.
Don't give me the "you get it for free" rubbish. Yeh, I get it for free, doesn't mean I can't criticise. I don't criticise to try and upset people, I criticise to try and give my input, which people are welcome to ignore.
Oxygen is art. Amarok is an application. I can understand you want an application to look nice but when that makes an function worse than it did before then it will invite criticism.
Maybe thick skin isn't such a good thing as it makes you ignore criticism by people who use your application frequently.
If you don't want people to criticise your half-complete work, don't post pictures saying "Doesn't this look great!" as that invites responses by people like myself who disagree. That is why the Oxygen guys have tried to keep things under wraps until the release, so people judge the finished product.
Don't give me the "you get it for free" rubbish. Yeh, I get it for free, doesn't mean I can't criticise. I don't criticise to try and upset people, I criticise to try and give my input, which people are welcome to ignore.
Oxygen is art. Amarok is an application. I can understand you want an application to look nice but when that makes an function worse than it did before then it will invite criticism.
Maybe thick skin isn't such a good thing as it makes you ignore criticism by people who use your application frequently.
If you don't want people to criticise your half-complete work, don't post pictures saying "Doesn't this look great!" as that invites responses by people like myself who disagree. That is why the Oxygen guys have tried to keep things under wraps until the release, so people judge the finished product.
You explained that you might have different colors to the default amarok ones and decided that this qualified as 'horrible' (ignoring that for example in current amarok, themes can be created/chosen so one to match your customized desktop could no doubt be found/made).
But overall, you use language like 'horrible' to describe someone else's work, act like the fact that you make regular use of something gives you some kind of entitlement and then have the bad grace to complain that devs overlook your opinion?
If you feel you have a point to make, why not do it politely? If you're worried about SVG not matching your color scheme why not simple ask? You use harsh terms to describe someones work and then you complain that they tune you out? maybe its time to think about why that might be the case!
But overall, you use language like 'horrible' to describe someone else's work, act like the fact that you make regular use of something gives you some kind of entitlement and then have the bad grace to complain that devs overlook your opinion?
If you feel you have a point to make, why not do it politely? If you're worried about SVG not matching your color scheme why not simple ask? You use harsh terms to describe someones work and then you complain that they tune you out? maybe its time to think about why that might be the case!
And I was having so much fun at the parade until you had to go and rain on it. 
Hi,
very cool! This becomes better everyday!!
one suggestion: I donn't like the vertical tabs. Did you ever thought about putting the tabs vertical at the top (menubar stlye with big icons and text underneath) At the moment there is more free space than you need.
However, keep up the good work, rock on!
very cool! This becomes better everyday!!
one suggestion: I donn't like the vertical tabs. Did you ever thought about putting the tabs vertical at the top (menubar stlye with big icons and text underneath) At the moment there is more free space than you need.
However, keep up the good work, rock on!
A couple of years ago we experimented with various alternatives to the vertical tabs. The alternatives either used up a lot of space or wouldn't have made a clear connection between the tab and the browser or were ugly.
We're already messing with a bunch of stuff, I doubt we'll have time to revisit it for Amarok 2.0.0. Qt 4 and our new design might present new opportunities. But we're already doing so much for 2.0.0!
We're already messing with a bunch of stuff, I doubt we'll have time to revisit it for Amarok 2.0.0. Qt 4 and our new design might present new opportunities. But we're already doing so much for 2.0.0!
It looks very impressive so far!
My only one comment would be about the squeezing of the playlist to the right hand side of the window.
In the current version of Amarok I'm using now, most of my time is spent either fiddling with tracks in the playlist (e.g. editing tags) or dragging and dropping files from the collection browser to the playlist.
Currently, I feel that the playlist is being demoted in importance a bit too much, and should instead be given a more significant amount of screen space. Then again, I don't know what plans you have for the middle space, so my comment could be irrelevant!
As for the large amount of space used up by the top bar (as was mentioned earlier) - maybe it could be used for some kind of visualisation? Perhaps a bit like the analysers in the current version of Amarok. Just a thought.
Keep up the great work!
My only one comment would be about the squeezing of the playlist to the right hand side of the window.
In the current version of Amarok I'm using now, most of my time is spent either fiddling with tracks in the playlist (e.g. editing tags) or dragging and dropping files from the collection browser to the playlist.
Currently, I feel that the playlist is being demoted in importance a bit too much, and should instead be given a more significant amount of screen space. Then again, I don't know what plans you have for the middle space, so my comment could be irrelevant!
As for the large amount of space used up by the top bar (as was mentioned earlier) - maybe it could be used for some kind of visualisation? Perhaps a bit like the analysers in the current version of Amarok. Just a thought.
Keep up the great work!
Thats intended. The analyzer was up there until earlier this week.. when making the top a svg performance took a huge hit because the svg needs to be rerendered 30 times a second (every new frame on the analyzer).
it's going to come back in some form
it's going to come back in some form
Hmmm - with "analyzer" you mean the "graphical-equalizer-like" tool at the bottom of Amarok 1.x?
I was missing that one in the screen shots, too.
kind regards,
wjl
I was missing that one in the screen shots, too.
kind regards,
wjl
Well, I don't really like analyzers, I have my Amarok on the bottom of the screen and I'm not looking on the analyzer, i am listening to the metal
How about having some kind of flat view option on playlists, similar to the one available for the collection in 1.4? It seems like it defeats the purpose of the new playlist, but it doesn't have to be the default, but it would help with massive playlists, as well as windows users who are converting from iTunes amarok
One of the reasons I finally moved to linux full time was because of amarok. I really don't the direction the UI is heading and will have to find another player if I can't use amarok as I do currently.
I don't care what you do to it as long as I can have a the full Amarok window as the playlist browser. I love having a table style layout of all my music with sortable headings.
I like the context menu and other features, but I must be able to hide them. Please make sure that I can hide all the extra features and be left with a full screen table style view of my playlist.
I don't care what you do to it as long as I can have a the full Amarok window as the playlist browser. I love having a table style layout of all my music with sortable headings.
I like the context menu and other features, but I must be able to hide them. Please make sure that I can hide all the extra features and be left with a full screen table style view of my playlist.
Why not just keep using the 1.4.x series of Amarok. Nobody will put a gun to your head and make you upgrade.
Because in KDE 4, I want native (Qt 4) applications, not old KDE 3/Qt 3 ones. Amarok has been the best player ever for me, but it is now completely ruined with Amarok 2. I must find new player for KDE 4, which will suit me 
Sorry bout that last post, is late, been tagging stuff for weeks, with no end in sight. I eagerly look forward to the new release too!
My thoughts on the interface:
http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amarokha7.png
http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amarokha7.png
wow, someone who actually did a bit of work and came up with some constructive criticism instead of just flaming away. I'm impressed.
That said, there are some relevant things in there, but most are related to stuff just not being done / ported yet. Many of the thing that do not fit together or has to much dead space around it, is due to new stuff being added / ported while some old stuff is still being left in. This will hopefully correct itself as more and more is ported.
Also, as was pointed out in an earlier comment, I managed to snap these screenshots with the wrong icon theme which DOES indeed make the icons look horrible!
Once we get a bit closer to release and have more of the app ready from a technical standpoint, this sort of criticism could prove very valuable, but honestly, it is a bit to early for us to really start working on any of these issues, as too mane things are still changing every day.
That said, there are some relevant things in there, but most are related to stuff just not being done / ported yet. Many of the thing that do not fit together or has to much dead space around it, is due to new stuff being added / ported while some old stuff is still being left in. This will hopefully correct itself as more and more is ported.
Also, as was pointed out in an earlier comment, I managed to snap these screenshots with the wrong icon theme which DOES indeed make the icons look horrible!
Once we get a bit closer to release and have more of the app ready from a technical standpoint, this sort of criticism could prove very valuable, but honestly, it is a bit to early for us to really start working on any of these issues, as too mane things are still changing every day.
Take a close look at this to better understand what is wrong with your interface design:
http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amarokha7.png
http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amarokha7.png
The magnatune, jamendo etc buttons on the left look too silly with these gradients. Should be something better looking there.
The answer to this, my old friend, is this: give us more artists
I can see why the developers think it looks nice. They've put a lot of time into it.
It's not what normal people find nice though, where 'not nice' actually means a lot of things:
- The big blue banner in the middle of the screen: it attracts the eye of the user, but it doesn't lead anywhere. There's nothing in it (I don't know what should be in there as I'm not a Linux/KDE user, so I'm only looking at these shots). It feels like the application window could be a lot smaller, or at least contain more useful information in the main area of the window. This blue banner doesn't need to be in the main area, me thinks.
- The player controls on top of the window: The buttons are not round, though they intend to be (I guess). They're also aliased. The time line is a bit too long and the slider on it is barely visible and looks fragile (almost to the point of screaming to the user: don't touch me or I'll break!).
- The volume slider: I can barely see the 80% text (badly chosen colors) and there's no point to have two sliders on top of each other. One should be enough. It's also in an odd place.
- The banner on top of the window breaks the whole main window. It could fit and look actually very nice if the rest of the window would have that style as well, but currently it's not, unfortunately.
- For all: there's no visually coherent style to it. It's all flying around in space (texts, ui elements), different visual styles are used, visual balance is broken (it's all leaning to the right) and spacings are not where they should be (according to simple design rules, which means: making it easy for the eye to spot and order things).
- And lots more.
To be honest, I do feel the pain of the developers when someone says "it sucks", but from a designers point of view, I sadly have to agree with them.
I really hope this reply can be of some use to improve the interface. It's not hard to make it well going, you just have to think before you start programming (I know, can be a hard to do, but it will pay off).
It's not what normal people find nice though, where 'not nice' actually means a lot of things:
- The big blue banner in the middle of the screen: it attracts the eye of the user, but it doesn't lead anywhere. There's nothing in it (I don't know what should be in there as I'm not a Linux/KDE user, so I'm only looking at these shots). It feels like the application window could be a lot smaller, or at least contain more useful information in the main area of the window. This blue banner doesn't need to be in the main area, me thinks.
- The player controls on top of the window: The buttons are not round, though they intend to be (I guess). They're also aliased. The time line is a bit too long and the slider on it is barely visible and looks fragile (almost to the point of screaming to the user: don't touch me or I'll break!).
- The volume slider: I can barely see the 80% text (badly chosen colors) and there's no point to have two sliders on top of each other. One should be enough. It's also in an odd place.
- The banner on top of the window breaks the whole main window. It could fit and look actually very nice if the rest of the window would have that style as well, but currently it's not, unfortunately.
- For all: there's no visually coherent style to it. It's all flying around in space (texts, ui elements), different visual styles are used, visual balance is broken (it's all leaning to the right) and spacings are not where they should be (according to simple design rules, which means: making it easy for the eye to spot and order things).
- And lots more.
To be honest, I do feel the pain of the developers when someone says "it sucks", but from a designers point of view, I sadly have to agree with them.
I really hope this reply can be of some use to improve the interface. It's not hard to make it well going, you just have to think before you start programming (I know, can be a hard to do, but it will pay off
).
Hi,
Please realize that this is a screenshot of software in development. Every time a screenshot is posted people rush to point out little things that one would expect in an application of release quality that are not quite there. Take a look at
http://amarok.kde.org/blog/uploads/amarok2oxygen.png
to see the progression.
Almost everything pointed out as "bad" or "unfinished" or "ugly" is something that was either recently disabled due to breakage somewhere else (the center for example is intended to hold all sorts of applets relating to contextual information. plasma recently changed and the applets have yet to be ported.) Pointing out things like this is far from helpful.
You are seeing a combination of old and new, with old elements being rearranged to make a new look without being perfected. The volume slider is the same one used in Amarok 1.x, it is just moved and has not been updated to go with the new background.
The progress slider being "too long" is a completely personal opinion. Some people want a slider that goes the entire length of the window, some people want one that takes up as little space as possible. The length now seems to be a good starting point.
The indicator on it is not a bug with Amarok, its a bug with the oxygen style. They chose to make indicators on progressbar's look like that, and we cannot do much about it.
Please realize that this is a screenshot of software in development. Every time a screenshot is posted people rush to point out little things that one would expect in an application of release quality that are not quite there. Take a look at
http://amarok.kde.org/blog/uploads/amarok2oxygen.png
to see the progression.
Almost everything pointed out as "bad" or "unfinished" or "ugly" is something that was either recently disabled due to breakage somewhere else (the center for example is intended to hold all sorts of applets relating to contextual information. plasma recently changed and the applets have yet to be ported.) Pointing out things like this is far from helpful.
You are seeing a combination of old and new, with old elements being rearranged to make a new look without being perfected. The volume slider is the same one used in Amarok 1.x, it is just moved and has not been updated to go with the new background.
The progress slider being "too long" is a completely personal opinion. Some people want a slider that goes the entire length of the window, some people want one that takes up as little space as possible. The length now seems to be a good starting point.
The indicator on it is not a bug with Amarok, its a bug with the oxygen style. They chose to make indicators on progressbar's look like that, and we cannot do much about it.
Some tips:
-Main buttons might be better on bottom.
-Add a search field
-Hide the middle box when it's blank.
-In the playlist group songs of the same album/artist into sublists, that is if the are in order.
-Make the active tab join with the left box. The vertical text is hard to read.
-Some rounded corners wouldn't be bad. It looks to blocky. The line just above the middle box is ugly, add some 3d cues to make the bar look like a bar.
-Make the volume and progress bar more obvious.
-Horizontal scrollbar in the playlist sucks.
-Main buttons might be better on bottom.
-Add a search field
-Hide the middle box when it's blank.
-In the playlist group songs of the same album/artist into sublists, that is if the are in order.
-Make the active tab join with the left box. The vertical text is hard to read.
-Some rounded corners wouldn't be bad. It looks to blocky. The line just above the middle box is ugly, add some 3d cues to make the bar look like a bar.
-Make the volume and progress bar more obvious.
-Horizontal scrollbar in the playlist sucks.
Thank you for parroting what everyone else said and not taking the time to research before commenting!
one suggestion, do not post pre release screenshots that you know that don't look good, it's simply common sense.
btw the vertical text in my opinion is bad design idea, you'd be better with just the icons and tooltips.
btw the vertical text in my opinion is bad design idea, you'd be better with just the icons and tooltips.
Ah, but the point, and I think this is what many people are missing, is not really about showing off how great everything looks now, and that his is the end all of how Amarok will look at release time, but more showing off what we perceive as great progress since the last set of screenshots.
yeah I know your intentions, but you have to look and see all the negative feedback that you are receiving about something that you say it's not final, why don't you just save those sad moments of having to read another of those comments by not posting any screenshots until you have something that can be considered very close to final.
Because:
1: We, the developers keep up our motivation by showing off our progress to the rest of the community.
2: We actually DO value constructive criticism and get some really great ideas from unexpected sources every once in a while.
3: It keeps the project visible. This is important for a number of reasons, not the least of which being attracting new developers and artists, something we can always use more of.
4: This is FLOSS software. Its source is developed in the open and hence the development process should be open as well (disclaimer: personal belief)
5: If we don't provide these kinds of updates, someone else will, and all things being equal, we are in a better position to actually convey some of the ideas behind the more controversial changes than an outsider building from source and posting screenshots.
1: We, the developers keep up our motivation by showing off our progress to the rest of the community.
2: We actually DO value constructive criticism and get some really great ideas from unexpected sources every once in a while.
3: It keeps the project visible. This is important for a number of reasons, not the least of which being attracting new developers and artists, something we can always use more of.
4: This is FLOSS software. Its source is developed in the open and hence the development process should be open as well (disclaimer: personal belief)
5: If we don't provide these kinds of updates, someone else will, and all things being equal, we are in a better position to actually convey some of the ideas behind the more controversial changes than an outsider building from source and posting screenshots.
good points (I didn't understood the 5. though my english skill isn't very good). But my point is: I know why you provide information about the progress of the project, but you really should try to hide a little the ugly stuff, and make more visible the cool stuff, it is just basic publicity principles . For example currently I'm developing a windows closed source freeware music library/player (this is why I'm following closely your development and the other important players in windows), but I'll show it when it's ready, I don't want people go around making up and idea about it from a preliminar view. well that's just my opinion , I shouldn't be here suggesting you stuff, I should be working in my own project
. For example currently I'm developing a windows closed source freeware music library/player (this is why I'm following closely your development and the other important players in windows), but I'll show it when it's ready, I don't want people go around making up and idea about it from a preliminar view. well that's just my opinion , I shouldn't be here suggesting you stuff, I should be working in my own project
If you guys value so much user feedback, why you keep the media browser in 66% of the window while in every news I see about amarok the users say they hate it?
Why not make it hide-able? That would simply solve the problem.
And what about the new concept of having 10 songs in the playlist, while everybody complains they want large playlists?
From all the previews from 2.X Ive seen, the impression I have is that you guys simply are going to dump all the users that used to like to have the playlist in the main window, and the ones who like long playlists. Its really a thing I dont understand.
To be honest, I really dont see how you guys are addressing user feedback and concerns... Seems pretty much they are being ignored, plain and simple.
Why not make it hide-able? That would simply solve the problem.
And what about the new concept of having 10 songs in the playlist, while everybody complains they want large playlists?
From all the previews from 2.X Ive seen, the impression I have is that you guys simply are going to dump all the users that used to like to have the playlist in the main window, and the ones who like long playlists. Its really a thing I dont understand.
To be honest, I really dont see how you guys are addressing user feedback and concerns... Seems pretty much they are being ignored, plain and simple.
I have some mixed feelings about the former context tab being spread over the middle of the screen. I think it will generally improve usability for me. However, I can definitely see it making playlist manipulation difficult. Will there some way that the user can temporarily hide the middle area to get room to look at more song details, do complex sorting, etc.?
We are aware that this represents an issue and are trying out different ways to remedy this! We have not really settled on one yet though, and as such do not have anything to show yet.
Well I think that from vesrion 2.0 I should search another player, because THIS looks so crappy that I cant use.
Thanks for your well though out constructive criticism! As you so clearly point out exactly what about version 2, that cannot possibly be fixed in the several months before the final release, that will keep you from using Amarok, this will really help us correct these issues...
Please, can you make the sidebar more like okular's (using icons instead of the weird sideways text)? It's such a throwback to the past and doesn't match the clean uncluttered interface of the rest of the application.
i want to say three things:
1. on the left side im missing the tab, where you can browse files. this is the view of my collection i always use, since the collection view needs to be tagged properly to be useful.
i think the only gtk player that can do that is exaile, but not in the smooth way amarok handles this.
please dont remove this option, without this amarok is useless for me.
2. i hope you focus on stability too: amarok 1.4.7 is still the app that generates the most crashes on kde 3.5.7 for me (especially when heavily working with the playlist)
3. at the moment there is high cpu-usage when switching a track. for example: i like to play the games openarena or urban terror. my cpu and graphics card can handle them, but each time amarok skips the track in the background i get 1-2seconds lag, which is annoying. of course this isnt a problem when browsing the web or so, i dont notice it then.
(athlon xp 2400)
4. Thanks for your status report, its good to show people the progress of the number 1 application
1. on the left side im missing the tab, where you can browse files. this is the view of my collection i always use, since the collection view needs to be tagged properly to be useful.
i think the only gtk player that can do that is exaile, but not in the smooth way amarok handles this.
please dont remove this option, without this amarok is useless for me.
2. i hope you focus on stability too: amarok 1.4.7 is still the app that generates the most crashes on kde 3.5.7 for me (especially when heavily working with the playlist)
3. at the moment there is high cpu-usage when switching a track. for example: i like to play the games openarena or urban terror. my cpu and graphics card can handle them, but each time amarok skips the track in the background i get 1-2seconds lag, which is annoying. of course this isnt a problem when browsing the web or so, i dont notice it then.
(athlon xp 2400)
4. Thanks for your status report, its good to show people the progress of the number 1 application
We had to remove the file tab during the last week as it was completely broken by a number of updates to the KDE4 API that was allowed to happen even though the API is generally frozen.
As we are not really sure how we want to implement it at the moment, we decided to remove it fr now so the rest of the application would at least compile
As we are not really sure how we want to implement it at the moment, we decided to remove it fr now so the rest of the application would at least compile
I'm also a big fan of the file browser. I use it when I'm not sure what I want to listen to, but don't want to listen to the Random Mix. (My files are organized into genre/sub-genre). So anyways, the file browser will be back one way or the other.
3. this problem is mostly the kernels fault (the default linux scheduler was pretty crappy for the desktop) and once you use like 2.6.22 it would probably be less of a problem. Amarok 1.4 did a lot of expensive string processing on track changes since we used HTML. We don't do that anymore since we use plasma for the context view, hopefully that will fix things as well.
3. this problem is mostly the kernels fault (the default linux scheduler was pretty crappy for the desktop) and once you use like 2.6.22 it would probably be less of a problem. Amarok 1.4 did a lot of expensive string processing on track changes since we used HTML. We don't do that anymore since we use plasma for the context view, hopefully that will fix things as well.
wow, a lot of negative energy here. I'd like to point out a gain progress is great, Amarok already starts to look usable - even though there is clearly a lot of work left. I just wait until you guys start ASKING for comments and suggestions
Keep up the good work!
Keep up the good work!
I absolutely second your comment! Amarok is awesome, there' a lot of things I could critizise and the moment, but there's no point in doing so because every two weeks or so, there's just so much progress visible in every screenshot that clearly shows that the UI is still at an early stage because it changes so often.
Please, keep up the awesome work. The majority of users are those who don't write negative comments but appreciate your work in silence instead!
Please, keep up the awesome work. The majority of users are those who don't write negative comments but appreciate your work in silence instead!
Replying everybody who criticises the look: why not use skins? Maybe it would require too much coding, but I think that a "Get new skins!" menu would let the users change the look to the one they prefer.
Also, why not put Last.fm along with Jamendo and Magnatune?
Also, why not put Last.fm along with Jamendo and Magnatune?
skins are most likely not going to happen. We want a consistent experience in KDE 4, not a riff-raff of different looking and working applications like Microsoft and Apple have created. You can use themes KDE-wide, but also specifically in one app (commandline switch: --theme=XXX). Amarok used to have its own icons and colorscheme, but I think that will be removed as well.
But the context view will be themable, afaik, like it always has been.
But the context view will be themable, afaik, like it always has been.
We are using SVGs in a lot of places, including the context view. Some sort of theming might be technically possible.
But yea, overall, skins are a 90s buzzword and were never that great. So its not a priority.
But yea, overall, skins are a 90s buzzword and were never that great. So its not a priority.
Sorry guys, but the new look is horrible. I love the old one, because is more organized than the newer. And there's a lot of wasted space around there.
> mp3tunes
So much for free software and free formats.
> The new one currently only supports local and remote m3u and pls files
It's nice to notice how XSPF is being treated as third-class citizen, even though it should have been the priority.
I'm somewhat disappointed with you, Nikolaj.
So much for free software and free formats.
> The new one currently only supports local and remote m3u and pls files
It's nice to notice how XSPF is being treated as third-class citizen, even though it should have been the priority.
I'm somewhat disappointed with you, Nikolaj.
> So much for free software and free formats.
The mp3tunes locker is nothing but an online storage service. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from storing all your music in the ogg-vorbis format, which is even supported by the online mp3tunes player as far as I can tell.
> It's nice to notice how XSPF is being treated as third-class citizen, even though it should have been the priority.
Ah, come on... Thats actually a very unfair comment. I started rewriting a very complex 1000+ lines file, and the only playlists I had around for testing at the moment were in m3u and pls format (actually, my main test case was getting streaming music from shoutcast working). This is is as far as I got, but nowhere did I state that the rest of the formats would not be supported. Actually, porting the loading of other playlist formats should be very easy to to, nobody has just gotten around to it yet as there are more serious issues to work on at the moment.
The mp3tunes locker is nothing but an online storage service. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from storing all your music in the ogg-vorbis format, which is even supported by the online mp3tunes player as far as I can tell.
> It's nice to notice how XSPF is being treated as third-class citizen, even though it should have been the priority.
Ah, come on... Thats actually a very unfair comment. I started rewriting a very complex 1000+ lines file, and the only playlists I had around for testing at the moment were in m3u and pls format (actually, my main test case was getting streaming music from shoutcast working). This is is as far as I got, but nowhere did I state that the rest of the formats would not be supported. Actually, porting the loading of other playlist formats should be very easy to to, nobody has just gotten around to it yet as there are more serious issues to work on at the moment.
There is so much negativity in the previous comments. It is obvious that it is a work in progress.
Keep up the good work.
Keep up the good work.
The negative comments are mainly due to the obvious visual flaws that could be fixed within a couple of minutes - like the distracting blue everywhere.
Just switching to some more consistent coloring would lead to much less "noise" (like a plain gray/white gradient on top and a lighter color in the plasma pane).
For now it is also not clear to me how far this SVGs are used for actual GUI elements (like the "buttons" for the different services in the screenshot) which as already pointed out would be the wrong direction in terms of integration.
Still there seems to be no solution for the big central plasma content plane in terms of usability. I find it quite disappointing that the developers are so fixated on the current layout.
For the (definitely) more important part, the actual changes mentioned:
Great work! Keep it up!
Just switching to some more consistent coloring would lead to much less "noise" (like a plain gray/white gradient on top and a lighter color in the plasma pane).
For now it is also not clear to me how far this SVGs are used for actual GUI elements (like the "buttons" for the different services in the screenshot) which as already pointed out would be the wrong direction in terms of integration.
Still there seems to be no solution for the big central plasma content plane in terms of usability. I find it quite disappointing that the developers are so fixated on the current layout.
For the (definitely) more important part, the actual changes mentioned:
Great work! Keep it up!
I Am very excited about Amarok 2.0 but so far I have had some mixed feelings about where it is heading I realize that it is not close to being done but I would like a interface a little more like the 1.4.X series. I don't have cover art for most of my music (in fact maybe like 1% of my music has art) so there should be at least an option to disable that in the play list. I personally like larger play lists too. I am not a fan of where the play list browser is heading. I liked where the collection, file, context, and device browsers shared space. I'm not sure how well I like the context browser taking the main focus I liked the play list to have the focus
I have one question how well will plasma port to windows I personally never use windows but a lot of my family does and I think they will love to use Amarok because it is an awesome music player.
I appreciate all the work the devs do but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents I hope I didn't sound rude to anyone but I really think some more thought needs to go into how the play list works (from the other comments other people think so too)
I have one question how well will plasma port to windows I personally never use windows but a lot of my family does and I think they will love to use Amarok because it is an awesome music player.
I appreciate all the work the devs do but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents I hope I didn't sound rude to anyone but I really think some more thought needs to go into how the play list works (from the other comments other people think so too)
1. Why are some people finding an UNFINISHED and ALPHA QUALITY media player "ugly, unusable, the last media player I will use on Earth", and the like? Please, look at this.
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winme_b3_29.gif
THIS IS UGLY, THIS IS COMPLETELY UNUSABLE, and what's worse, THIS IS FINISHED SOFTWARE. And every whiner couldn't do anything about its publishing.
So, please, don't bash Amarok 2.
2. Nevertheless, I have some ideas for you. I definitely second the "expandable album" playlist feature. But this can be made better, and the blue square in the center can be used to:
a) Suggest me songs, based on Last.FM suggestions, in a visible way. The basics are there (in Amarok 1.4.7), and you can link your dynamic playlists to Plasma data sources, to enable new Plasma apps and to enable this.
b) Maybe it's time for a RE-SORT OF PANES. What about putting vertical tabs to the left, PLAYLIST TO THE CENTER (where it can get more space, after all people LOVES space for the playlist) and additional content and Plasma for the RIGHT (using about the same space as Amarok actual design)? And make it faster, too.
Thanks in advance, and believe me, Amarok is the BEST. It beats Winamp, WiMP and iTunes. And surely it will beat them hard when Amarok reaches Windows
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winme_b3_29.gif
THIS IS UGLY, THIS IS COMPLETELY UNUSABLE, and what's worse, THIS IS FINISHED SOFTWARE. And every whiner couldn't do anything about its publishing.
So, please, don't bash Amarok 2.
2. Nevertheless, I have some ideas for you. I definitely second the "expandable album" playlist feature. But this can be made better, and the blue square in the center can be used to:
a) Suggest me songs, based on Last.FM suggestions, in a visible way. The basics are there (in Amarok 1.4.7), and you can link your dynamic playlists to Plasma data sources, to enable new Plasma apps and to enable this.
b) Maybe it's time for a RE-SORT OF PANES. What about putting vertical tabs to the left, PLAYLIST TO THE CENTER (where it can get more space, after all people LOVES space for the playlist) and additional content and Plasma for the RIGHT (using about the same space as Amarok actual design)? And make it faster, too.
Thanks in advance, and believe me, Amarok is the BEST. It beats Winamp, WiMP and iTunes. And surely it will beat them hard when Amarok reaches Windows
>1. Why are some people finding an UNFINISHED and ALPHA QUALITY media player "ugly, unusable, the last media player I will use on Earth", and the like?
This is because of strategy and direction of moving. Many times the question of play list form and location of play list was discussed in amarok blog. Many people asked developers to move play list to the center and change play list to be more amarok 1.4.x like. But amarok developers many times stated that "blue square" will remain on the center. This is the main "feature" from their point if view.
And what would you say if in final release if Amarok "blue square" will remain on the middle and play list will be similar to the current one?
And other question. Do you believe that developer will change something without hearing thousand times that current implementation is ugly and unusable? But frankly speaking, in case of amarok developers I doubt that they will change this even if they will hear this every day. That is their toy, they decide ...
This is because of strategy and direction of moving. Many times the question of play list form and location of play list was discussed in amarok blog. Many people asked developers to move play list to the center and change play list to be more amarok 1.4.x like. But amarok developers many times stated that "blue square" will remain on the center. This is the main "feature" from their point if view.
And what would you say if in final release if Amarok "blue square" will remain on the middle and play list will be similar to the current one?
And other question. Do you believe that developer will change something without hearing thousand times that current implementation is ugly and unusable? But frankly speaking, in case of amarok developers I doubt that they will change this even if they will hear this every day. That is their toy, they decide ...
i'm horrified. still esoterics and 'looks good for me' is in place when a thing called scientific approach ('logic') has been invented 3000+ years ago. and this is supposed to be the top notch open source audio player? hardly anyone but amarok-fanboys will 'get' this. design is a not a texture ('skin'), it's a process goddamnit, and it's goal has to be usability.
I'm still hoping for a eMusic webservice thing like Magnatunes et al. What skills would be required to write one for Amarok?
Diplomacy...
... as in getting eMusic to provide an open API that 3rd party programs can use.
Other than that it should be fairly simple to implement on top of the already existing service framenwork using Qt and C++.
... as in getting eMusic to provide an open API that 3rd party programs can use.
Other than that it should be fairly simple to implement on top of the already existing service framenwork using Qt and C++.
Hi Amarok team.
Amarok has nothing to compare on earth. It equally suits those with handpicked selections as well as those with ginormous collections. Im waiting for amarok2 and its windows port!
Please lwt me give some wishes and suggestions
1. Is the interface themable?
2. Retain something similarv to the context bar
3. Does it still show vizualization while playing?
4. support plasmoid visualization. Let us flaunt our visualizations as desktop widgets or even as the desktop. This was present in xmms plugins but im hoping plasma will make it much faster
5. maybe the widget pane willl look better on the bottom.
6. speedup the inbuilt database - for those who have to deal with mysql
Amarok has nothing to compare on earth. It equally suits those with handpicked selections as well as those with ginormous collections. Im waiting for amarok2 and its windows port!
Please lwt me give some wishes and suggestions
1. Is the interface themable?
2. Retain something similarv to the context bar
3. Does it still show vizualization while playing?
4. support plasmoid visualization. Let us flaunt our visualizations as desktop widgets or even as the desktop. This was present in xmms plugins but im hoping plasma will make it much faster
5. maybe the widget pane willl look better on the bottom.
6. speedup the inbuilt database - for those who have to deal with mysql
I would like to see a feature to save the album covers as tags ^-^. I just bought a Creative ZVM and I got kinda disappointed when I noticed I had to edit the tags, so I could see the album covers.