Saturday, May 21. 2005
amaroK: We like to hear from you
Over the last couple of weeks, there have been numerous discussions, opinions and evaluations of the usability of amaroK.
At the amaroK HQ, we believe this to be one of the critical factors in maintaining amaroK's appeal to the community, and getting to know how users best respond to different features, implementations and the quirks which they have. A large part of requests which we had we believed to be handy, but were unable to implement them ourselves for various reasons. We wanted to have such a wide range of functionality, so we gave users the script manager. These scripts range as widely from outbound-streaming, transcoders to remote web interfaces. Allow users to download scripts via the interface, and, BAM!, we have a winner.
Some of the more 'pressing' issues with amaroK are some of the tabs. We have had many discussions about what to do with them. The 'Home' section of the context browser is useless, wastes space and is difficult to read, use and interpret. We hope to solve this by replacing it with a Statistics section. If anybody would like to help us redesign, or if you have any ideas, why don't you visit the wiki?
What about users who don't have an iPod? What is the point of the tab? Nothing, I suppose. We would like to make this into a general media device accessing interface, with support for multiple devices, including those chinese usb-flash storage devices. I'm sure they are useful. No, really.
I personally experienced great grief with the Playlist Browser. Playlists were cool to use, but Smart playlists where difficult to use, there was a fixed stream entry, and so much space was wasted. Smart playlists are, after all, a type of playlists. Why separate them? Many users suggested the ability to add streams, remove default streams and smart playlists, amongst other great ideas. For those of you using 1.3-SVN, you will know that Party Mode config is in an akward location, unintelligable and has a steep learning curve. I have started moving this to the playlist browser, and it seems to fit well. If you want to try SVN out, beware that this section is under heavy development and there are plenty of non-functionalities. Although, let us know how to improve it.
The playlist browser is the first of a number of improvements you will see coming towards our upcoming 1.3 release, and be assured that we love to hear criticism about the application (we love thanks as well!!!). Remember, no matter how anti some of the developers are to some ideas, we all have our (usually) good reasons - feel free to ask us why we won't do something.
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" The 'Home' section of the context browser is useless, wastes space and is difficult to read, use and interpret. We hope to solve this by replacing it with a Statistics section.. "
WHAT?? The home part is the best part, who on earth suggested this? Oh man..
WHAT?? The home part is the best part, who on earth suggested this? Oh man..
#1
on
2005-05-21 07:37
A Statistics section sounds very interessting...
#1.1
on
2005-05-21 11:02
What's wrong with USB flash players? I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic with your comment, but I would like to see support for my player. I never listen to more than a few hours worth of music every week so I cannot warrant spending the money on an ipod with 10,000 songs on it. My flash player even advertises that it works on Linux. I don't see why open source should support Apple's ipod when they obviously don't care about it working on Linux when other hard-drive based players do.
As most generic flash players are simply FAT formatted USB keys, adding support for them should be easier than for the ipod. All you need to know is where the player folder has been mounted to synchronise the music to (get the user to select it), the maximum amount that can be stored there (query the device) and perhaps some options for the device limitations (e.g. can it play ogg?) to stop invalid tracks being put on it. Then give it a playlist, and when the device is plugged in, automatically synchronise it in a rsync-style way.
As most generic flash players are simply FAT formatted USB keys, adding support for them should be easier than for the ipod. All you need to know is where the player folder has been mounted to synchronise the music to (get the user to select it), the maximum amount that can be stored there (query the device) and perhaps some options for the device limitations (e.g. can it play ogg?) to stop invalid tracks being put on it. Then give it a playlist, and when the device is plugged in, automatically synchronise it in a rsync-style way.
#2
on
2005-05-21 09:06
What part of "We would like to make this into a general media device accessing interface, with support for multiple devices, including those chinese usb-flash storage devices." makes you think support for these devices is not being planned? 
It'd be nice to interface with media:/ or something. Do you think rsync style syncing would make sense? I mean, it does if your player holds your entire collection. Thats not the case with any of the usb-storage devices that I know of. I was thinking of having just a regular file dialog where stuff could be dragged into and automatically transcoded.
It'd be nice to interface with media:/ or something. Do you think rsync style syncing would make sense? I mean, it does if your player holds your entire collection. Thats not the case with any of the usb-storage devices that I know of. I was thinking of having just a regular file dialog where stuff could be dragged into and automatically transcoded.
#2.1
on
2005-05-21 10:54
How does the existing iPod one work? (couldn't know, as I don't have one)
Either way, I have a 20GB iRiver myself (standard UMS, supports Vorbis, and all), so that should be handled like an iPod, and not like a usb flash thing.
Either way, I have a 20GB iRiver myself (standard UMS, supports Vorbis, and all), so that should be handled like an iPod, and not like a usb flash thing.
The iPod has a database that has to be dealth with, I'd imagine the same for your iRiver. My 4gig Muvo^2 is quite simple, works just like a USB keychain.
#2.1.1.1
on
2005-05-21 13:33
It (iRiver iHP-120) does have a database mode, but it's completely optional and works just as well (or better?) with a plain file tree, which is how I use it.
Rather than rsync-ing the entire library would it be possible to rsync only a particular playlist?
I do not yet own a portable mp3/ogg player but I am contemplating the purchase of a 1Gb or a 2Gb flash-based USB unit. This is considerably less storage than my entire music collection, so rsync of the whole thing is out of the question. However, I imagine that it would be very useful to be able to register the player's mount point as an amarok preference and to have a playlist option to synchronize the player with the playlist.
With this option, managing the content of the portable player would be a simple a managing a playlist.
I do not yet own a portable mp3/ogg player but I am contemplating the purchase of a 1Gb or a 2Gb flash-based USB unit. This is considerably less storage than my entire music collection, so rsync of the whole thing is out of the question. However, I imagine that it would be very useful to be able to register the player's mount point as an amarok preference and to have a playlist option to synchronize the player with the playlist.
With this option, managing the content of the portable player would be a simple a managing a playlist.
#2.1.2
on
2005-10-31 08:01
The 'problem' with other media players is that the iPod says: "hey, I am an iPod", and when you have a matching driver: "feed me files and database info". Where most other mediaplayers are just a 'USB storage device' to the operating system. There is no way to know that something else down there is invisibly reading the files to play them back. You can't see if it supports only MP3, WMV or Ogg, or if it supports playlists and what format, etc.
But well, the "media player"-tab could be refactored into a general 'external storage' tab. Have a drop down selector for detected devices (iPod, iRiver, .. , CD/DVD burner, external storage devices, 'just a path'). Only the latter one would enable the path selector to be changed, for the others it would be a grayed out field.
But you may have noticed that it won't be a 'simple tab' anymore.
But well, the "media player"-tab could be refactored into a general 'external storage' tab. Have a drop down selector for detected devices (iPod, iRiver, .. , CD/DVD burner, external storage devices, 'just a path'). Only the latter one would enable the path selector to be changed, for the others it would be a grayed out field.
But you may have noticed that it won't be a 'simple tab' anymore.
#2.2
on
2005-05-24 05:05
I agreed amaroK is one of the useful application for Linux (KDE).
I am a 1.2.3 Version user and I am waiting for an amaroK version which iPod Tab accept generic USB flash player too. This functionality is a must.
Best regards,
Juan Ehrenhaus
I am a 1.2.3 Version user and I am waiting for an amaroK version which iPod Tab accept generic USB flash player too. This functionality is a must.
Best regards,
Juan Ehrenhaus
#2.2.1
on
2005-06-06 02:48
Hi, it's a impressive work what you're doing at amarok. I think that it's the best music player available for linux, but I must admit that when I tried it, I didn't know what the hell could I do, it was too unusable! Nice to see you're quickly fixing it!
I have a suggestion: Look at those vertical tabs at left. There're icons, but you're only showing icon+text in the selected.
But look again: There's lot of void, unused space under the tabs. Why not display the text for all tabs, if you can? One of the things that google is demonstrating everybody is that you can be just as usable (or more) than traditional iconized apps if you use text! Gamil itself only has icons where it has sense (text formatting bar), but the rest is just text, still it's usable because people can read and know what things do! Those icons in the amarok tabs are nice, but with so much space to put text there's no reason to not to put text too!
I have a suggestion: Look at those vertical tabs at left. There're icons, but you're only showing icon+text in the selected.
But look again: There's lot of void, unused space under the tabs. Why not display the text for all tabs, if you can? One of the things that google is demonstrating everybody is that you can be just as usable (or more) than traditional iconized apps if you use text! Gamil itself only has icons where it has sense (text formatting bar), but the rest is just text, still it's usable because people can read and know what things do! Those icons in the amarok tabs are nice, but with so much space to put text there's no reason to not to put text too!
#3
on
2005-05-21 11:34
Ideally we would have the text for everything. But it makes it quite hard to see which tab is selected. We really we need another widget entirely, one that doesn't exist yet.
#3.1
on
2005-05-21 11:40
Can't you use the horizontal tab widget as in this screenshot:
http://www.kde-apps.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=21250&file1=21250-1.jpg&file2=21250-2.jpg&file3=21250-3.jpg&name=Improving+KDE+%28for+KDE+3.4%29
http://www.kde-apps.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=21250&file1=21250-1.jpg&file2=21250-2.jpg&file3=21250-3.jpg&name=Improving+KDE+%28for+KDE+3.4%29
#3.1.1
on
2005-05-21 13:02
Current SVN-Trunk of amaroK 1.3 uses these kind tabs. If only they weren't that ugly, this 45 degree straight bend doesn't fit in with most KDE themes.
But HIG wise it is an improvement
But HIG wise it is an improvement
#3.1.1.1
on
2005-05-24 05:14
how about handling id3v1 and id3v2 seperately id3v2 can handle i18n tags without a problem while id3v1 cannot
so allowing to tag seperately id3v1 and id3v2 will allow using an hebrew id3v2 tag and use an english version of the tag in id3v2 which would make using a portable media player easier as most dont even support hebrew but most support id3v1
so allowing to tag seperately id3v1 and id3v2 will allow using an hebrew id3v2 tag and use an english version of the tag in id3v2 which would make using a portable media player easier as most dont even support hebrew but most support id3v1
#4
on
2005-05-21 16:41
What bothers me most about amarok, and some other linux music players, is in the collection browser, not only would I like to view items in a artist/album hierarchial view, but I'd like to also be able to view items in a filesystem tree with directory/file view. is there an option I am overlooking? maybe this type of view can be turned on for those who prefer
amaroK has a File Browser for that!?
#5.1
on
2005-05-22 05:52
The filebrowser could use a Favorites/Bookmarks section.
#5.1.1
on
2005-05-24 10:40
Um, the file browser does have bookmarks.
#5.1.1.1
on
2005-05-24 13:31
Ehm.. another case of "you need to know the icons". Apparently it wasn't clear enough, even to me. What I would like to see is that the favourites also appear in the path selector drop down list.
Something like 3 most used, and when you type anything it would match the paths against the stuff you typed.
Something like 3 most used, and when you type anything it would match the paths against the stuff you typed.
#5.1.1.1.1
on
2005-06-06 05:51
Can you add an option to change the rating of a song? E.g. “vote down” or something like that? This is something I really miss in amarok.
#6
on
2005-05-22 05:35
I just want to say thank you. Even though I don't always agree with the design decisions in amaroK, I appreciate that you and other devs are taking the time to get and listen to user feedback.
I was one of the people who commented on the "amarok, complex?" blog entry (http://amarok.kde.org/blog/archives/28-amaroK,-complex.html#c261).
The screenshot you posted looks like it addresses my suggestion #4 - making it obvious how to add a playlist. I'm really excited about that. Adding playlists has always been one of the hardest things for me to do in amarok.
I do have a couple questions regarding my other suggestions. In my earlier post I suggested merging the functionality of the Collection and Playlist tabs. For me, the two most common types of playlist are single albums and all of the albums of an artist.
In the new playlist structure that you show in your screenshot, perhaps you could add an "Albums & Artists" header to accompany Playlists, Streams, Smart Playlists, and Party.
If you'd rather not do that, could you at least treat Artists and Albums (in the Collection view) as de-facto playlists? That is, you can double-click on an Album in the Collection view and that album will play as a playlist.
Thanks again for listening. If these suggestions don't seem desirable or workable, I'd be very interested to hear why you (and the other devs) don't like them.
Thanks,
Lane
I was one of the people who commented on the "amarok, complex?" blog entry (http://amarok.kde.org/blog/archives/28-amaroK,-complex.html#c261).
The screenshot you posted looks like it addresses my suggestion #4 - making it obvious how to add a playlist. I'm really excited about that. Adding playlists has always been one of the hardest things for me to do in amarok.
I do have a couple questions regarding my other suggestions. In my earlier post I suggested merging the functionality of the Collection and Playlist tabs. For me, the two most common types of playlist are single albums and all of the albums of an artist.
In the new playlist structure that you show in your screenshot, perhaps you could add an "Albums & Artists" header to accompany Playlists, Streams, Smart Playlists, and Party.
If you'd rather not do that, could you at least treat Artists and Albums (in the Collection view) as de-facto playlists? That is, you can double-click on an Album in the Collection view and that album will play as a playlist.
Thanks again for listening. If these suggestions don't seem desirable or workable, I'd be very interested to hear why you (and the other devs) don't like them.
Thanks,
Lane
#8
on
2005-05-23 14:23
Including the collection in the playlist wouldn't work, the collection view is very search-oriented and very long.
You say "If you'd rather not do that, could you at least treat Artists and Albums (in the Collection view) as de-facto playlists? That is, you can double-click on an Album in the Collection view and that album will play as a playlist." Not sure what that means. Isn't this what happens already? If they didn't play as a playlist, how would it play?
You say "If you'd rather not do that, could you at least treat Artists and Albums (in the Collection view) as de-facto playlists? That is, you can double-click on an Album in the Collection view and that album will play as a playlist." Not sure what that means. Isn't this what happens already? If they didn't play as a playlist, how would it play?
You asked "Not sure what that means. Isn't this what happens already? If they didn't play as a playlist, how would it play?"
No, this doesn't happen already. Items in the "Collection" tab can't be played at all. Here's what currently happens:
Assume my goal is to play the album "A Whisky Kiss" by Shooglenifty.
I open amarok 1.2.3 and click on the Collection tab. I see a list of Artists. I click on "Shooglenifty," thinking that doing so might load all Shooglenifty songs into the main panel. Nothing happens. I try double-clicking on "Shooglenifty." The plus sign expands, and I see three albums listed under "Shooglenifty" - "A Whisky Kiss" is one of them. I try clicking on "A Whisky Kiss." Nothing happens. I try double-clicking on "A Whisky Kiss." The plus sign expands, and I see a list of all songs on that album. Finally, in desparation, I try double-clicking on the first song listed under "A Whisky Kiss." I figure, maybe that will load up the album and start it playing. Nope. It loads only that song into the main panel.
Here's what I'm proposing:
Again, assume that my goal is to play the album "A Whisky Kiss" by Shooglenifty.
I open amarok 1.2.3 and click on the Collection tab. I see a list of Artists. I click on "Shooglenifty." A list of all songs by Shooglenifty appears in the main panel. I click on the plus sign beside "Shooglenifty." The plus sign expands, and I see three albums listed under "Shooglenifty" - "A Whisky Kiss" is one of them. I try clicking on "A Whisky Kiss." A list of all songs in "A Whisky Kiss" appears in the main panel. I can then press the "Play" button. Had I double-clicked on "A Whisky Kiss" the first song in that album would have automatically started playing.
No, this doesn't happen already. Items in the "Collection" tab can't be played at all. Here's what currently happens:
Assume my goal is to play the album "A Whisky Kiss" by Shooglenifty.
I open amarok 1.2.3 and click on the Collection tab. I see a list of Artists. I click on "Shooglenifty," thinking that doing so might load all Shooglenifty songs into the main panel. Nothing happens. I try double-clicking on "Shooglenifty." The plus sign expands, and I see three albums listed under "Shooglenifty" - "A Whisky Kiss" is one of them. I try clicking on "A Whisky Kiss." Nothing happens. I try double-clicking on "A Whisky Kiss." The plus sign expands, and I see a list of all songs on that album. Finally, in desparation, I try double-clicking on the first song listed under "A Whisky Kiss." I figure, maybe that will load up the album and start it playing. Nope. It loads only that song into the main panel.
Here's what I'm proposing:
Again, assume that my goal is to play the album "A Whisky Kiss" by Shooglenifty.
I open amarok 1.2.3 and click on the Collection tab. I see a list of Artists. I click on "Shooglenifty." A list of all songs by Shooglenifty appears in the main panel. I click on the plus sign beside "Shooglenifty." The plus sign expands, and I see three albums listed under "Shooglenifty" - "A Whisky Kiss" is one of them. I try clicking on "A Whisky Kiss." A list of all songs in "A Whisky Kiss" appears in the main panel. I can then press the "Play" button. Had I double-clicked on "A Whisky Kiss" the first song in that album would have automatically started playing.
#8.1.1
on
2005-05-23 14:55
Well all the browsers use a drag and drop interface. You could also use the right-click menu. What if you wanted only one track?
"Well all the browsers use a drag and drop interface. You could also use the right-click menu."
Two issues here: drag-n-drop to create playlists and right-click menu. The problem is that both of these mechanisms are very non-obvious to the casual user.
Let's deal with right-click first. You're right - I can do what I want (play "A Whisky Kiss") by right-clicking on "A Whisky Kiss" and selecting "Make Playlist" from the menu. But before you told me that, I had no idea I could do that. Right-click menus should always supplement and duplicate functionality available via regular menus. Some users assume functionality is available in right-click menus and will try right-clicking when searching for functions. Other users don't ever use right-click functions, and will never even think to try that. The "Make Playlist" function in the right-click menu is good; the fact that the "Make Playlist" function is only available in the right-click menu is very bad.
The second option you mention is drag and drop. Again, you're right - I can do what I want (play "A Whisky Kiss") by dragging "A Whisky Kiss" into the main panel. But again, how would I know this without you telling me? If someone starts messing around with amarok, they will likely notice the Collections tab, and try clicking on their artists and albums. But unless they get lucky or read the manual, it's entirely possible that they won't figure out that they can drag and drop artists and albums to the main panel.
Both of these problems stem from a lack of visual clues.
For a user to successfully use amaroK, that user must know that the main panel is a temporary holding place where songs about to be played can live. For a user to successfully use amaroK, that user must not believe that the main panel is where all songs live, nor must they believe that playlists are effectively "saved filters."
The amaroK metaphor for the main panel conflicts with behavior that users have come to expect based on the behavior of other programs. Contrast the amaroK method with that of KMail, KNode, aKregator, JuK, and iTunes. In each of those applications, the user selects a folder (or equivalent) from the left panel, and the list of items enclosed in that folder appears on the right. In amaroK, the user must select items from the left panel and drag them into the main panel. In order to have this new playlist be remembered, the user then must then save the playlist as an m3u file.
This behavior essentially means that an amaroK user must throw away their assumptions of the right panel, realize that the right panel only contains playlists, realize that playlists must be manually created via drag-n-drop or right click, and think of their music in terms of playlists before the user is allowed to do anything useful with their music.
Two issues here: drag-n-drop to create playlists and right-click menu. The problem is that both of these mechanisms are very non-obvious to the casual user.
Let's deal with right-click first. You're right - I can do what I want (play "A Whisky Kiss") by right-clicking on "A Whisky Kiss" and selecting "Make Playlist" from the menu. But before you told me that, I had no idea I could do that. Right-click menus should always supplement and duplicate functionality available via regular menus. Some users assume functionality is available in right-click menus and will try right-clicking when searching for functions. Other users don't ever use right-click functions, and will never even think to try that. The "Make Playlist" function in the right-click menu is good; the fact that the "Make Playlist" function is only available in the right-click menu is very bad.
The second option you mention is drag and drop. Again, you're right - I can do what I want (play "A Whisky Kiss") by dragging "A Whisky Kiss" into the main panel. But again, how would I know this without you telling me? If someone starts messing around with amarok, they will likely notice the Collections tab, and try clicking on their artists and albums. But unless they get lucky or read the manual, it's entirely possible that they won't figure out that they can drag and drop artists and albums to the main panel.
Both of these problems stem from a lack of visual clues.
For a user to successfully use amaroK, that user must know that the main panel is a temporary holding place where songs about to be played can live. For a user to successfully use amaroK, that user must not believe that the main panel is where all songs live, nor must they believe that playlists are effectively "saved filters."
The amaroK metaphor for the main panel conflicts with behavior that users have come to expect based on the behavior of other programs. Contrast the amaroK method with that of KMail, KNode, aKregator, JuK, and iTunes. In each of those applications, the user selects a folder (or equivalent) from the left panel, and the list of items enclosed in that folder appears on the right. In amaroK, the user must select items from the left panel and drag them into the main panel. In order to have this new playlist be remembered, the user then must then save the playlist as an m3u file.
This behavior essentially means that an amaroK user must throw away their assumptions of the right panel, realize that the right panel only contains playlists, realize that playlists must be manually created via drag-n-drop or right click, and think of their music in terms of playlists before the user is allowed to do anything useful with their music.
#8.1.1.1.1
on
2005-05-23 15:53
"What if you wanted only one track?"
This is one thing that's actually easy to do in amarok now. It would also be easy under the changes I proposed above.
My goal is to play a single song ("Farewell to Nigg") from the album "A Whisky Kiss" by Shooglenifty:
Under existing behavior, if the user double-clicks on the song in the Collection tab, that song is added to the playlist and it begins to play.
Under the behavior I described above, the user could double-click on the album, and then click play to play just the one song.
Or, under the behavior I described above, if the user double-clicks on the song in the Collection tab, that song either be added to the playlist or it could replace the playlist and begin to play.
This is one thing that's actually easy to do in amarok now. It would also be easy under the changes I proposed above.
My goal is to play a single song ("Farewell to Nigg") from the album "A Whisky Kiss" by Shooglenifty:
Under existing behavior, if the user double-clicks on the song in the Collection tab, that song is added to the playlist and it begins to play.
Under the behavior I described above, the user could double-click on the album, and then click play to play just the one song.
Or, under the behavior I described above, if the user double-clicks on the song in the Collection tab, that song either be added to the playlist or it could replace the playlist and begin to play.
#8.1.1.1.2
on
2005-05-23 16:04
But what happens if I have my playlist set and I start browsing my collection looking for songs that should be added to the playlist. If I understand you correctly, the contents of the right pane, the playlist, will be replaced with the contents of the folder that I click on. I think this is not right, but maybe I am misunderstanding you.
If someone starts messing around with amarok, they will likely notice the Collections tab, and try clicking on their artists and albums. But unless they get lucky or read the manual, it's entirely possible that they won't figure out that they can drag and drop artists and albums to the main panel.
Except if they see the big gray box in the middle of the empty playlist that says, "... drag tracks from the browser panels on the left ..."
One of the huge features of amarok that I really like, is the ability to browse the entire collection on the left and build a playlist as I am listening. What you are describing is replacing the playlist with a listing of folder contents, like kmail, and I don't like that because the contents of the right pane will keep changing as I navigate folders, or in your idea does clicking on folders only add items to the right and not remove?
One of the problems I have with usability, is that we always have to assume the user knows nothing, and we dumb down the interface to make it so people don't have to know anything, but in the meantime, all the really cool features end up not being usable, so they have to be removed.
A really nice attribute of the amaroK dev team is that they don't trow the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to usability. A lot goes into those discussions and decisions, I have witnessed them. Usability is decided based on the context within the application, not within the context of the entire computing experience, which IMHO is the way to do it. Using global musts prevent us from having really good features in a single app because they don't make sense in all apps. For example, I don't think you can take the metaphor of kmail and mail folders and apply it to folders of media files, to use your example. The way kmail deals with its left pane makes sense for kmail and reading and sorting mail, the way amaroK deals with its left pane makes sense for listening to music.
Then again, I could be (and probably am) totally wrong.
If someone starts messing around with amarok, they will likely notice the Collections tab, and try clicking on their artists and albums. But unless they get lucky or read the manual, it's entirely possible that they won't figure out that they can drag and drop artists and albums to the main panel.
Except if they see the big gray box in the middle of the empty playlist that says, "... drag tracks from the browser panels on the left ..."
One of the huge features of amarok that I really like, is the ability to browse the entire collection on the left and build a playlist as I am listening. What you are describing is replacing the playlist with a listing of folder contents, like kmail, and I don't like that because the contents of the right pane will keep changing as I navigate folders, or in your idea does clicking on folders only add items to the right and not remove?
One of the problems I have with usability, is that we always have to assume the user knows nothing, and we dumb down the interface to make it so people don't have to know anything, but in the meantime, all the really cool features end up not being usable, so they have to be removed.
A really nice attribute of the amaroK dev team is that they don't trow the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to usability. A lot goes into those discussions and decisions, I have witnessed them. Usability is decided based on the context within the application, not within the context of the entire computing experience, which IMHO is the way to do it. Using global musts prevent us from having really good features in a single app because they don't make sense in all apps. For example, I don't think you can take the metaphor of kmail and mail folders and apply it to folders of media files, to use your example. The way kmail deals with its left pane makes sense for kmail and reading and sorting mail, the way amaroK deals with its left pane makes sense for listening to music.
Then again, I could be (and probably am) totally wrong.
#8.1.1.1.2.1
on
2005-05-24 13:10
Sorry, I meant for the second paragraph above to be a quote of the post I was responding to.
#8.1.1.1.2.1.1
on
2005-05-24 14:47
>>If someone starts messing around with amarok, they will likely notice the
>>Collections tab, and try clicking on their artists and albums. But unless
>>they get lucky or read the manual, it's entirely possible that they won't
>>figure out that they can drag and drop artists and albums to the main panel.
>Except if they see the big gray box in the middle of the empty playlist that says, "... drag tracks from the browser panels on the left ..."
Thank you for pointing this out to me.
Since this is only displayed for new users (who don't have a ~/.kde/share/apps/amarok folder), I didn't see this. I've had various versions of amarok installed for quite a while, so I have missed seeing this feature.
Yes, that big gray box is exactly the type of thing that should help a lot. It's what I was suggesting in a comment farther down this page.
>>Collections tab, and try clicking on their artists and albums. But unless
>>they get lucky or read the manual, it's entirely possible that they won't
>>figure out that they can drag and drop artists and albums to the main panel.
>Except if they see the big gray box in the middle of the empty playlist that says, "... drag tracks from the browser panels on the left ..."
Thank you for pointing this out to me.
Since this is only displayed for new users (who don't have a ~/.kde/share/apps/amarok folder), I didn't see this. I've had various versions of amarok installed for quite a while, so I have missed seeing this feature.
Yes, that big gray box is exactly the type of thing that should help a lot. It's what I was suggesting in a comment farther down this page.
#8.1.1.1.2.1.2
on
2005-05-24 16:03
I just found the amarok wiki page. Cool stuff!
Is this design still being considered?
http://amarok.kde.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Animefan-main-v1.png
I think it addresses a lot of my usability concerns.
Thanks,
Lane
Is this design still being considered?
http://amarok.kde.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Animefan-main-v1.png
I think it addresses a lot of my usability concerns.
Thanks,
Lane
#8.2
on
2005-05-23 14:37
No not really. http://amarok.kde.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Window_Refactored
Ian wrote: "No not really. http://amarok.kde.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Window_Refactored"
OK... That's the page that I was looking at.
Reading the comments further down on that page, it seems like the main objection stemmed making the context browser horizontal (at the top of the window on the right) rather than vertical (on the left side of the window). What about the other aspects of the design?
I think that the design is much easier to understand that the status quo. It clearly encapsulates all music content under the Sources tab. If people prefer a vertical context browser, it could be added as a third tab (in addition to Sources and Lyrics).
OK... That's the page that I was looking at.
Reading the comments further down on that page, it seems like the main objection stemmed making the context browser horizontal (at the top of the window on the right) rather than vertical (on the left side of the window). What about the other aspects of the design?
I think that the design is much easier to understand that the status quo. It clearly encapsulates all music content under the Sources tab. If people prefer a vertical context browser, it could be added as a third tab (in addition to Sources and Lyrics).
#8.2.1.1
on
2005-05-23 15:10
It does so at the cost of the collection browser and the file browser altogether (local collection only seems to have smart playlists), as far as I can tell.
"It does so at the cost of the collection browser and the file browser altogether (local collection only seems to have smart playlists), as far as I can tell."
Yes, and that is a good thing.
The collection browser and the file browser, as they currently stand, exist only so that the user can drag and drop songs or albums into the main panel.
If a better, more obvious mechanism was created for creating playlists (like the Add... button in the screenshot at the top of this page), then the collection browser and file browser wouldn't be needed.
The result would be a cleaner interface that is more in sync with other KDE apps.
Yes, and that is a good thing.
The collection browser and the file browser, as they currently stand, exist only so that the user can drag and drop songs or albums into the main panel.
If a better, more obvious mechanism was created for creating playlists (like the Add... button in the screenshot at the top of this page), then the collection browser and file browser wouldn't be needed.
The result would be a cleaner interface that is more in sync with other KDE apps.
#8.2.1.1.1.1
on
2005-05-23 16:07
"The collection browser and the file browser, as they currently stand, exist only so that the user can drag and drop songs or albums into the main panel."
Which I LIKE. If the collection browser goes away, I'll stop upgrading, without a doubt.
Which I LIKE. If the collection browser goes away, I'll stop upgrading, without a doubt.
#8.2.1.1.1.1.1
on
2005-05-24 04:03
Double clicking to add a "folder" (read: artist or album) to the playlist from the collection view would break the general behaviour of KDE (and QT) where a double click in an expandable list expands the item. Drag and drop is just how it works in KDE. Quite Apple like, btw (so you'll probably see the same behaviour in Gnome).
btw, I've seen new users at my local youth club make the same assumption. "When I double click, I want the file to appear there (points at playlist)". Then I answer "What did you just say? You want the program to do something in a way it doesn't behave?
Should be noted that in -for example- Konqueror the fileview follows the tabs. But that would be difficult to mirror in a'K, the current playlist should be visible at all time (..really?). Unless you switch to a Norton Command like 2 column interface.
btw, I've seen new users at my local youth club make the same assumption. "When I double click, I want the file to appear there (points at playlist)". Then I answer "What did you just say? You want the program to do something in a way it doesn't behave?
Should be noted that in -for example- Konqueror the fileview follows the tabs. But that would be difficult to mirror in a'K, the current playlist should be visible at all time (..really?). Unless you switch to a Norton Command like 2 column interface.
#8.3
on
2005-05-24 05:41
Hmm, this would bind in nicely with a tabbed playlist. where one tab would always follow the sidebar. It would change on-the-fly. No need for a NC 2 column interface.
http://amarok.kde.org/component/option,com_simpleboard/Itemid,0/func,view/id,5929/catid,9/
http://amarok.kde.org/component/option,com_simpleboard/Itemid,0/func,view/id,5929/catid,9/
#8.3.1
on
2005-05-24 05:44
"Double clicking to add a "folder" (read: artist or album) to the playlist from the collection view would..."
This line of thought perfectly encapsulates why many users find amarok so hard to use.
You think of the main right panel as "the playlist." You describe moving items from the collection to the playlist.
OTOH, many users (me included) who find amaroK difficult to use think of the main right panel simply as the place where songs live. That panel holds the list of all songs. Amarok is confusing from the get-go because that list is empty. I know I have songs in amaroK, but there aren't any songs in the list on the right!
You also say "Drag and drop is just how it works in KDE. Quite Apple like, btw (so you'll probably see the same behaviour in Gnome)."
True, except it works the other way around. In other apps, you drag items from the main right panel to the secondary left panel. In iTunes and JuK, you drag songs from the right panel into the left panel to create a playlist. In KMail, you drag emails from the right panel into the left panel if you want to move the emails to a different folder. In Windows Explorer and the Mac OS X Finder column view, you drag items from the right panel into folders on the left panel.
In short, amaroK is the only app I can think of where you drag items from a list in the left panel into the right panel.
I figure that creating a playlist means selecting a static or dynamic (in the case of smart playlists) subset of items from the right panel; basically a playlist is a saved filter.
This line of thought perfectly encapsulates why many users find amarok so hard to use.
You think of the main right panel as "the playlist." You describe moving items from the collection to the playlist.
OTOH, many users (me included) who find amaroK difficult to use think of the main right panel simply as the place where songs live. That panel holds the list of all songs. Amarok is confusing from the get-go because that list is empty. I know I have songs in amaroK, but there aren't any songs in the list on the right!
You also say "Drag and drop is just how it works in KDE. Quite Apple like, btw (so you'll probably see the same behaviour in Gnome)."
True, except it works the other way around. In other apps, you drag items from the main right panel to the secondary left panel. In iTunes and JuK, you drag songs from the right panel into the left panel to create a playlist. In KMail, you drag emails from the right panel into the left panel if you want to move the emails to a different folder. In Windows Explorer and the Mac OS X Finder column view, you drag items from the right panel into folders on the left panel.
In short, amaroK is the only app I can think of where you drag items from a list in the left panel into the right panel.
I figure that creating a playlist means selecting a static or dynamic (in the case of smart playlists) subset of items from the right panel; basically a playlist is a saved filter.
#8.3.2
on
2005-05-24 13:27
No offense, but if you like how JuK does things use JuK. amaroK is playlist-centered, JuK is collection centered. We're trying to make amaroK easier to use, not redesign the whole thing.
#8.3.2.1
on
2005-05-24 13:36
Ian,
Thanks for your reply. I know I've commented a lot on this thread.
I do actually use both JuK and amaroK. They both have their own strengths. My comments have been meant to point out the problems I have had when using amaroK, and alternatives that I have thought of. I hope no offense has been taken by you or other developers. None was meant. I appreciate your work, and admire you for taking the time to solicit input.
My main concern still is that amaroK's interface is not intuitive. I understand that you don't want to redesign things. If things are left as they are, perhaps good on-screen documentation could play a factor in helping new users understand how amaroK works.
Here's a suggestion that would work with the existing design:
When amaroK starts up, display some helpful text in the right panel. I'm thinking something like what you see in the right panel when you start up the KDE Control Center. It could say something like "amaroK playlist viewer: To get started listening to music, drag songs from the collection tab to here."
Again, thanks for listening.
Lane
Thanks for your reply. I know I've commented a lot on this thread.
I do actually use both JuK and amaroK. They both have their own strengths. My comments have been meant to point out the problems I have had when using amaroK, and alternatives that I have thought of. I hope no offense has been taken by you or other developers. None was meant. I appreciate your work, and admire you for taking the time to solicit input.
My main concern still is that amaroK's interface is not intuitive. I understand that you don't want to redesign things. If things are left as they are, perhaps good on-screen documentation could play a factor in helping new users understand how amaroK works.
Here's a suggestion that would work with the existing design:
When amaroK starts up, display some helpful text in the right panel. I'm thinking something like what you see in the right panel when you start up the KDE Control Center. It could say something like "amaroK playlist viewer: To get started listening to music, drag songs from the collection tab to here."
Again, thanks for listening.
Lane
#8.3.2.1.1
on
2005-05-24 15:34
oggb4mp3 pointed out to me in a post farther up in this page that this already exists.
As I said in my response to that post, "Since this is only displayed for new users (who don't have a ~/.kde/share/apps/amarok folder), I didn't see this. I've had various versions of amarok installed for quite a while, so I have missed seeing this feature."
I am very glad to see this.
Would it make sense to have this grey box displayed whenever there is an empty playlist, or would that just be annoying for experienced users?
As I said in my response to that post, "Since this is only displayed for new users (who don't have a ~/.kde/share/apps/amarok folder), I didn't see this. I've had various versions of amarok installed for quite a while, so I have missed seeing this feature."
I am very glad to see this.
Would it make sense to have this grey box displayed whenever there is an empty playlist, or would that just be annoying for experienced users?
#8.3.2.1.1.1
on
2005-05-24 16:06
> Would it make sense to have this grey box displayed
> whenever there is an empty playlist, or would that just be
> annoying for experienced users?
I believe it already is, at least it does for me running current svn.
> whenever there is an empty playlist, or would that just be
> annoying for experienced users?
I believe it already is, at least it does for me running current svn.
#8.3.2.1.1.1.1
on
2005-05-24 19:14
I did some testing and just emptying the playlist won't make it appear. It only shows up when amaroK is started with nothing in the playlist.
#8.3.2.1.1.1.1.1
on
2005-05-24 23:05
Um, it does do that exact thing when you start with an empty playlist.
After commenting on the other replies, now some general observations. I'm rather flabbergasted myself why people find it difficult to use, so I grind on it a lot in my mind 
I have been thinking a bit about the a'K interface. One thing is that people seem to mistake the collection browser for the playlist. So maybe put a big fat "Playlist" text on top of the actual playlist? (Or put it there as a 'watermark' in the background)
The 'boxes' at the bottom are to obscure. I need to explain everyone that the 'left boxy thing' is the 'random' button. Why not use standard buttons (you know the loopy one for 'random'), and put description text next to it.
Another thing, why don't we abstract the "how many songs" from the smart playlists? Select "10 songs" or "74 minutes" (etc.) and then click on a playlist, BAM! ( ) instant playlist! Don't know if this would usable for the average newbie. Maybe you need to move this choice to a context menu that pops up when you drop the smart playlist on the current playlist. That would seem natural to me.
I've also seen that people want WinAMP like behavior where selecting a bunch files in the playlist creates an ad hoc new playlist with only this subset. This is bad behaviour IMHO, but still, something to note. A tabbed playlist view could help, but wouldn't be the same of course. Dragging would 'copy' the song and not remove it from the originating tab.
I have been thinking a bit about the a'K interface. One thing is that people seem to mistake the collection browser for the playlist. So maybe put a big fat "Playlist" text on top of the actual playlist? (Or put it there as a 'watermark' in the background)
The 'boxes' at the bottom are to obscure. I need to explain everyone that the 'left boxy thing' is the 'random' button. Why not use standard buttons (you know the loopy one for 'random'), and put description text next to it.
Another thing, why don't we abstract the "how many songs" from the smart playlists? Select "10 songs" or "74 minutes" (etc.) and then click on a playlist, BAM! (
) instant playlist! Don't know if this would usable for the average newbie. Maybe you need to move this choice to a context menu that pops up when you drop the smart playlist on the current playlist. That would seem natural to me.I've also seen that people want WinAMP like behavior where selecting a bunch files in the playlist creates an ad hoc new playlist with only this subset. This is bad behaviour IMHO, but still, something to note. A tabbed playlist view could help, but wouldn't be the same of course. Dragging would 'copy' the song and not remove it from the originating tab.
#9
on
2005-05-24 06:13
btw, when the Collection browser was mistaken for playlist it was in 'flat view' mode. Would it be possible to give it a slightly different visual? The new a'K 1.3 sidebar layout with the description text visible should also help a lot with this problem.
And maybe something better could be used for switching between the two views in the Collection browser. These buttons probably don't mean much to most people. But in my case that's more related to having a system running at local youth club where nobody regularly uses KDE (though I also find the meaning of these buttons obscure in Konqy and others).
Anyways, I think the 'flat view' mode is more intuitive for newbies. Since searching doesn't suddenly drop a huge part of the items you see (searching should find stuff, not remove, or something.. ). Plus you see all info of the track, instead of just the collapsed toplevel entry of the tree. And there is a description when the list is empty, but that won't be seen most of the time (people always leave the search term in the textbox, so the next one doesn't see the hint).
Maybe these views could get their own tab? 'Collection browser' and 'Collection search' (but you have search on both.. hmm, bad naming).
And maybe something better could be used for switching between the two views in the Collection browser. These buttons probably don't mean much to most people. But in my case that's more related to having a system running at local youth club where nobody regularly uses KDE (though I also find the meaning of these buttons obscure in Konqy and others).
Anyways, I think the 'flat view' mode is more intuitive for newbies. Since searching doesn't suddenly drop a huge part of the items you see (searching should find stuff, not remove, or something..
). Plus you see all info of the track, instead of just the collapsed toplevel entry of the tree. And there is a description when the list is empty, but that won't be seen most of the time (people always leave the search term in the textbox, so the next one doesn't see the hint).Maybe these views could get their own tab? 'Collection browser' and 'Collection search' (but you have search on both.. hmm, bad naming).
#9.1
on
2005-05-24 07:01
Thanks, I think these are all good points.
#9.2
on
2005-05-24 13:38
Maybe the 'selection in a playlist, is a playlist' behaviour could be mimicked by automaticly adding items to the 'play next' list (with the number labels) when you select items.
#9.2.1
on
2005-05-24 13:54
i've been using xmms for quite a long time and switched to amaroK three days ago (and will be using amaroK from now on, it's just great )
i don't think that amaroK is that difficult to use, it's just different to use than xmms or similar apps -- i guess this is mainly because it's more feature rich.
the only thing i'm missing is detachable tabs. as amaroK is quite "big" in terms of window size i usually have it minimized but e.g. still want to be able to view the lyrics tab (i also had xmms always in background or minimized, but xmms-lyrc was in front on one of my screens).
as i read somewhere (dunno anymore if on irc or here), more playlists "at the same time" would be nice. e.g. having one "party playlist" or "slow songs" playlist for the girlfriend where you are able to have different songs and switch between themselves just with one click on the tab.
keep up the good work!
JG^
)i don't think that amaroK is that difficult to use, it's just different to use than xmms or similar apps -- i guess this is mainly because it's more feature rich.
the only thing i'm missing is detachable tabs. as amaroK is quite "big" in terms of window size i usually have it minimized but e.g. still want to be able to view the lyrics tab (i also had xmms always in background or minimized, but xmms-lyrc was in front on one of my screens).
as i read somewhere (dunno anymore if on irc or here
), more playlists "at the same time" would be nice. e.g. having one "party playlist" or "slow songs" playlist for the girlfriend where you are able to have different songs and switch between themselves just with one click on the tab.keep up the good work!
JG^
#10
on
2005-05-24 09:24
Single click song switching would be bad if you want to see what's on your other playlist tabs. (*click* starts other song, click starts another song, click ..)
On a similar note, maybe the playlist controls -empty (= close), undo, redo- could be moved to the playlist tab bar.
On a similar note, maybe the playlist controls -empty (= close), undo, redo- could be moved to the playlist tab bar.
#10.1
on
2005-05-24 10:39
To see just the lyrics for example, try the amaroK view in the universal sidebar (rightclick a panel and add a universal sidebar)
You can have it at the right or left of the screen and collapse it when you don't need it. It seems to always be on top, for better or worse...
You can have it at the right or left of the screen and collapse it when you don't need it. It seems to always be on top, for better or worse...
I like the way amarok works. Try playing two albums in CD track order in iTunes. Not easy !
I think an introduction wizard (druid??) explaining the basic concepts might help new users get over the "What the .."
Being able to use the album covers to make playlists would be cool. i.e. allow dragging from the cover manager to playlist.
I think an introduction wizard (druid??) explaining the basic concepts might help new users get over the "What the .."
Being able to use the album covers to make playlists would be cool. i.e. allow dragging from the cover manager to playlist.
#11
on
2005-06-06 23:25
You can drag from the cover manager.
I think having a introduction flash movie might be a good idea.
I think having a introduction flash movie might be a good idea.
id3v1 vs. id3v2.
First, this is a great program, and I use it all the time.
It seems that Amarok only writes id3v1 tags when saving using the music brainz feature (which is otherwise awesome)... this is kind of a problem. Once names are truncated, the whole thing, database and all gets borked.
Is there any way I can get this application to write only id3v2 tags? It seems to read them just fine.
First, this is a great program, and I use it all the time.
It seems that Amarok only writes id3v1 tags when saving using the music brainz feature (which is otherwise awesome)... this is kind of a problem. Once names are truncated, the whole thing, database and all gets borked.
Is there any way I can get this application to write only id3v2 tags? It seems to read them just fine.
#12
on
2005-06-23 19:08
amaroK should have a --window option or similar.
When I use WindowMaker, wich doesn't have a systemtray, amaroK just does nothing, and I can't activate it.
When I use WindowMaker, wich doesn't have a systemtray, amaroK just does nothing, and I can't activate it.
Add win32 codec support to your Linux System...then plug that usb device into a USB port. Finally copy files to folder in home directory....you can make the directory Music
. Let amrok search for music on the system.
SUPRISE!!!! MP3, .wma all from wherever seem to work. Wonder why and how?
. Let amrok search for music on the system.
SUPRISE!!!! MP3, .wma all from wherever seem to work. Wonder why and how?
#14
on
2006-02-03 19:03
My only issue is the interface but the abilty to read .m4a files into the collection, it's plays them fine but I have about 500 songs that are not in my collection.
Otherwise awsome player......
Otherwise awsome player......
#15
on
2006-02-09 03:39
The author does not allow comments to this entry
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